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<blockquote data-quote="ruleslawyer" data-source="post: 3681086" data-attributes="member: 1757">Note my post immediately above. I said it *should* be errata'd, not that it *has been* errata'd. That said, now that I look at it again, I'm thinking that the real balance issue you're seeing (to the OP) is that the save DCs for some of these abilities are very high, but that maybe you're not taking into account token cost or level of effect. As I noted earlier, Primal Howl is basically a mook-buster; it inflicts the shaken condition on pretty much any opponent that would pose a reasonable fight to the PCs, and leaves the frightened condition to opponents who likely would just be speedbumps. Moreover, it's not a &quot;Round One and the fight's over&quot; ability, *especially* if you're talking about the DC getting up there. Sure, a 5th-level berserker can get 10 tokens and use Primal Howl with DC (10 + 5/2 + 5 + 10 =) 27 as a free action. Is that enough to drive off any 4 HD mook? Sure. However, think about what the berserker had to do to earn those tokens. Either he had to save tokens over 5 rounds (in which case he wasn't using *any of his class abilities* from Rounds 1-5) or he had to see an ally fall, or he's wasting a bunch of actions stoking fury, or he's getting damaged a lot. None of these are *good* things from an overall combat perspective. If, OTOH, the 'zerker is using Primal Howl as a base: Well, it's got a DC of 17. Sure, if the party encounters a bunch of goblins, it's a walkover to use 2 tokens and a standard action in round 2 to disperse them. However, that's still assuming that there was either an action spent gathering tokens, or the 'zerker took damage. A fighter can do the same thing with Great Cleave and a full-round action.Anyway, even using Primal Howl as written (and I think Adam's right; it's fine by RAW), I don't see how this is a balance issue. YMMV.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ruleslawyer, post: 3681086, member: 1757"] Note my post immediately above. I said it *should* be errata'd, not that it *has been* errata'd. That said, now that I look at it again, I'm thinking that the real balance issue you're seeing (to the OP) is that the save DCs for some of these abilities are very high, but that maybe you're not taking into account token cost or level of effect. As I noted earlier, Primal Howl is basically a mook-buster; it inflicts the shaken condition on pretty much any opponent that would pose a reasonable fight to the PCs, and leaves the frightened condition to opponents who likely would just be speedbumps. Moreover, it's not a "Round One and the fight's over" ability, *especially* if you're talking about the DC getting up there. Sure, a 5th-level berserker can get 10 tokens and use Primal Howl with DC (10 + 5/2 + 5 + 10 =) 27 as a free action. Is that enough to drive off any 4 HD mook? Sure. However, think about what the berserker had to do to earn those tokens. Either he had to save tokens over 5 rounds (in which case he wasn't using *any of his class abilities* from Rounds 1-5) or he had to see an ally fall, or he's wasting a bunch of actions stoking fury, or he's getting damaged a lot. None of these are *good* things from an overall combat perspective. If, OTOH, the 'zerker is using Primal Howl as a base: Well, it's got a DC of 17. Sure, if the party encounters a bunch of goblins, it's a walkover to use 2 tokens and a standard action in round 2 to disperse them. However, that's still assuming that there was either an action spent gathering tokens, or the 'zerker took damage. A fighter can do the same thing with Great Cleave and a full-round action. Anyway, even using Primal Howl as written (and I think Adam's right; it's fine by RAW), I don't see how this is a balance issue. YMMV. [/QUOTE]

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