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Iron Lore: Malhavoc's Surprise?
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<blockquote data-quote="JohnSnow" data-source="post: 2281019" data-attributes="member: 32164"><p>Which is pretty much what I've been trying to say all along. You can scream until you're blue in the face that Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser (or Conan for that matter) are low fantasy and really need GnG rules, but the truth is that the narrative doesn't back it up. Both of them have some pretty high levels of wahoo in the heroes' abilities. What they lack is the senseless disregard for threats that comes with high-level D&D characters.</p><p></p><p>Various D20 solutions have been proposed. There's about 6 in <em>Unearthed Arcana</em> alone: (1) Lower the massive damage threshold, (2) use wound/vitality, (3) Replace hit points with a damage save, et cetera, etc.</p><p></p><p>The one thing UA did NOT do was try to rebalance the game to eliminate the "exponential spellcaster power" and "multiple magical item dependency" or "Christmas Tree Effect" (hereafter CTE) problems. And for the flavor of d20 Fantasy _I_ want, I need to address those issues. Ideally, I'd like them addressed in such a way that I can still use modules and monsters "out of the box." And THAT is what I am hoping to get from <em>Iron Lore</em>.</p><p></p><p>Then if I want to houserule damage, I can houserule damage. Personally, I screwed around with the VP/WP idea before deciding that it complicates things too much and that a lower MDT (I personally like CON + HD) was all that was needed. That leaves the notion of hitpoints as a hand-wavey combination of actual toughness and "heroic luck." But it still allows for the GnG reality of some things that characters ought to fear (falls from great heights, critical hits) actually being dangerous.</p><p></p><p>As I said before Wulf, I understand that you've decided Iron Lore isn't what you thought it might be, but it seems to me like you're tearing it down without seeing the finished product. I get that you feel Conan/Fafhrd/Grey Mouser are best represented by "Grim and Gritty" fantasy (which you coincidentally happen to have a product for). I just happen to have a different take on those stories than you, AND I don't particularly see how you can judge the whacky, wahoo factor of this product based on seeing ONE ability that you think is "over-the-top." Like I said, I get it. You think arrow ladder is dumb. Does that hold true for all the other abilities we've seen, or are you deciding that <em>Iron Lore</em> is silly/Xena-ish because you have decided (in your obviously superior knowledge of what constitutes "acceptable" low fantasy) that this one ability somehow "poisons" the whole concept?</p><p></p><p>Just curious.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JohnSnow, post: 2281019, member: 32164"] Which is pretty much what I've been trying to say all along. You can scream until you're blue in the face that Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser (or Conan for that matter) are low fantasy and really need GnG rules, but the truth is that the narrative doesn't back it up. Both of them have some pretty high levels of wahoo in the heroes' abilities. What they lack is the senseless disregard for threats that comes with high-level D&D characters. Various D20 solutions have been proposed. There's about 6 in [i]Unearthed Arcana[/i] alone: (1) Lower the massive damage threshold, (2) use wound/vitality, (3) Replace hit points with a damage save, et cetera, etc. The one thing UA did NOT do was try to rebalance the game to eliminate the "exponential spellcaster power" and "multiple magical item dependency" or "Christmas Tree Effect" (hereafter CTE) problems. And for the flavor of d20 Fantasy _I_ want, I need to address those issues. Ideally, I'd like them addressed in such a way that I can still use modules and monsters "out of the box." And THAT is what I am hoping to get from [i]Iron Lore[/i]. Then if I want to houserule damage, I can houserule damage. Personally, I screwed around with the VP/WP idea before deciding that it complicates things too much and that a lower MDT (I personally like CON + HD) was all that was needed. That leaves the notion of hitpoints as a hand-wavey combination of actual toughness and "heroic luck." But it still allows for the GnG reality of some things that characters ought to fear (falls from great heights, critical hits) actually being dangerous. As I said before Wulf, I understand that you've decided Iron Lore isn't what you thought it might be, but it seems to me like you're tearing it down without seeing the finished product. I get that you feel Conan/Fafhrd/Grey Mouser are best represented by "Grim and Gritty" fantasy (which you coincidentally happen to have a product for). I just happen to have a different take on those stories than you, AND I don't particularly see how you can judge the whacky, wahoo factor of this product based on seeing ONE ability that you think is "over-the-top." Like I said, I get it. You think arrow ladder is dumb. Does that hold true for all the other abilities we've seen, or are you deciding that [i]Iron Lore[/i] is silly/Xena-ish because you have decided (in your obviously superior knowledge of what constitutes "acceptable" low fantasy) that this one ability somehow "poisons" the whole concept? Just curious. [/QUOTE]
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