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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 2284226" data-attributes="member: 4937">While its undoubtable true that high level spell casters are more powerful than high level fighters when prepared and with a full roster of high level spells left to cast, its not true that high level spell casters aren't giving up anything in order to have access to that Meteor Swarm 'class ability'.&nbsp; Did you see anything in the archers class abilities that suggested it could ever produce the mundane equivalent of a meteor swarm?&nbsp;&nbsp; More to the point, is it really Meteor Swarm that is important to high level characters?&nbsp; If dealing damage was the only advantage of high level mages, then they'd probably not be all that much better than high level fighters.&nbsp;&nbsp; Fighters don't really need alot of ways to deal more damage at high levels.&nbsp; Merely bumping up damage output in various ways is not a particularly creative or interesting solution to the real problems. I don't disagree, I was only asking how you could improve a base feat 9 times.&nbsp;&nbsp; Apparantly that is a misnomer, and you only improve it a couple of times.&nbsp;&nbsp; Still, I'd feel better if we got to see an entire feat path or at least some sample mastery level 9-10 feats.When I first got a look at the token system, I remarked that this is potentially one of the best magic systems that's ever been invented for a D20 game.&nbsp; I remain convinced of that.&nbsp;&nbsp; If I were going to write a new game system, the magic system would almost certainly be influenced by what Mearls is doing.I'm less convinced that's its a neat general system for handling the mechanics of everything.&nbsp; I wanted to see a system that allowed high level, low magic campaigns, so that I could run gritty campaigns beyond D&amp;D's 'sweet spot' without greatly increasing the burdens of play.&nbsp;&nbsp; Nothing I've seen convinces me that the system actually does that.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 2284226, member: 4937"] While its undoubtable true that high level spell casters are more powerful than high level fighters when prepared and with a full roster of high level spells left to cast, its not true that high level spell casters aren't giving up anything in order to have access to that Meteor Swarm 'class ability'. Did you see anything in the archers class abilities that suggested it could ever produce the mundane equivalent of a meteor swarm? More to the point, is it really Meteor Swarm that is important to high level characters? If dealing damage was the only advantage of high level mages, then they'd probably not be all that much better than high level fighters. Fighters don't really need alot of ways to deal more damage at high levels. Merely bumping up damage output in various ways is not a particularly creative or interesting solution to the real problems. I don't disagree, I was only asking how you could improve a base feat 9 times. Apparantly that is a misnomer, and you only improve it a couple of times. Still, I'd feel better if we got to see an entire feat path or at least some sample mastery level 9-10 feats. When I first got a look at the token system, I remarked that this is potentially one of the best magic systems that's ever been invented for a D20 game. I remain convinced of that. If I were going to write a new game system, the magic system would almost certainly be influenced by what Mearls is doing. I'm less convinced that's its a neat general system for handling the mechanics of everything. I wanted to see a system that allowed high level, low magic campaigns, so that I could run gritty campaigns beyond D&D's 'sweet spot' without greatly increasing the burdens of play. Nothing I've seen convinces me that the system actually does that. [/QUOTE]

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