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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DungeonMaster" data-source="post: 1999308" data-attributes="member: 27431">That's a good way of reasoning - I  guess I could say you've never seen a fig/mu in actual play and that destroys your entire argument as well? Gestahlts are insane. They're 3.5 too. PrC are omnipresent. You know what I mean. Do it casually, no dice rolls, like in 3.5. So if I apply the same logic as above all items are optional in 1st edition and up to the DM? Even with those items you don't kill balrogs, pitfiends, gelugons and the whole host of Type whatever devils and demons in one round without rolling a single die, no save no SR. The 19th level MU has to contend with 60% magic resistance and is not even CLOSE to as damaging as the cleric. Try again if you really want but I'll be ultimately surprised if you can come even close to Andy Collin's uber broken holy word and the general 3.5 trend to not label caster level increase. Core 3.5 DMG PrC. Just like the I don't know, Eldricht Knight? that screams of fig/mu to me. You can fit 10 easily in that radius. With a core 3.5 metamagic rod of widen spell you could get 20 or 30. You could fit an entire left wing of the Infernal armies in there. Gobs of pitfiends, gelugons, cornugons, all dead *poof* no save, no SR. Entire 20th level parties *poof* all dead. Or merely paralyzed then coup de grace if you don't use the PrC. That's balance for you, I guess.  You've provided no actual experience or examinations of the rulesets. In fact you just claim vaguely "a fig/mu is overpowered"  while I've provided an example of a core 3.5 cleric with a handful of magic items and a core 3.5 PrC that dwarfs anything seen in previous editions. I don't know what you mean by "most basic 3e character" and most "tricked out 1e/2e character. As far as I can tell the most "tricked out 1e/2e character" is a complete chump compared to  a core rules 3.5 cleric with one spell and a hankering for caster level increase. If I were to go truly non-core rules we could easily kill hextor as a standard action. Or have fun with 1-->16 power attack ratios and spells like shivering touch. I've seen all editions of the game, I play a core 3rd edition game because I like the rules not because I think the rules are in any way "better balanced" than previous editions. Any claim to that effect is erroneous. 3rd edition characters are much more powerful than previous edition characters. The flexibility inherent in the system that allows you to increase ability scores without limits that always net you benefit is enough to prove that point. The flexibility inherent in a feats and skills and level for level multiclassing system is more than enough to prove that point. It's the quantitative nature of the system that allows this. Everything is the bigger bonus and the bigger bonus is everything.I can't even pick up a single 3rd edition or worse 3.5 supplement and find something that isn't broken in some horrible fashion or another. You're hamstrung to either re-write, ban, cross your fingers the players won't notice it or just forget about the whole supplement idea in the first place. I</blockquote>

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