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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kzach" data-source="post: 4477605" data-attributes="member: 56189">How is more less?4e has given every class more powers and abilities than they've ever had before in any edition. Are they seriously comparing a fighter's attack from every other edition to 4e's multiple versions and saying 4e comes up short?If that is the case, then there's really no hope for them. They've turned on the blinkers and will see what they want to see, not what is actually there.Which has also been a major problem for most groups throughout the last thirty years. Grognards don't like to admit it, but once you got to around 10th-level, every other class other than wizard and cleric becomes obsolete. Let me guess, all the complainers and whiners are wizard/cleric players.Another completely ridiculous assertion. There is absolutely nothing in the rules that says, "YOU MUST HAVE A DEFENDER, A STRIKER, A CONTROLLER AND A LEADER OR ELSE THE GODS OR ROLEPLAYING GAMES WILL STRIKE YOU DOWN!"The only thing that WotC has done is to name the roles. The roles were always there, in every edition, since the concept of an adventuring group coming up against a bunch of monsters first existed. Saying that you're somehow forced to make a group with these roles filled is such utter nonsense that I have to wonder if this group is just being contrary to be contrary.Ironically, 4e makes the roles even less a requirement because they have classes that are flexible enough to fill other classes roles. Paladins can be healing machines if you focus on that, fighters can pretty much take care of themselves, a lot of classes have controller-like powers, warlords and clerics can fill a defender role in a pinch, etc. That was far less the case in previous editions, with the exception that 3.x gave you that versatility once you started getting into prestige classes.And this is where we come to the real crux of the issue. They don't want to like it. They're not giving it a go, they're going through the motions so that they can say, "Well, we tried it, didn't like it, now let's get back to what we know and love!"No matter what the truth or reality is, they've already made their decision and are going to stick with it. They have no objectivity.Which is just fine and dandy. Let them play what they like playing. Forcing 4e on them is obviously not the way to go.</blockquote>

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