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<blockquote data-quote="Cbas_10" data-source="post: 3818554" data-attributes="member: 55767">I agree; the OP was using the word as originally defined; not as it is commonly used by various people/groups in politics.Anyway...as a huge skeptic of 4E, my reading here on these forums has opened my eyes to something about 4E that I like.&nbsp; The system of Saves becoming target numbers for the antagonist to roll against.&nbsp; Also, Reflex effectively becomes the old Touch AC.&nbsp; I still have many reservations, but I'm not keeping a closed mind....Regarding the loss of save-or-die effects...I have no problem with that loss.&nbsp; If the rules were bent to make it impossible for PCs to be killed by various wierdness (such as falling when your flying mount is killed, being crushed by something huge, etc), that would be another story.&nbsp; But the majority of you I agree with.&nbsp; Save-or-die is not quite as fun or exciting.&nbsp; I still use that sort of thing in major climatic events, but the PCs are aware of those possibilities almost 100% of the time (knowing that an artifact is protected by a magical spell, knowing that they will have to cross a treacherous bridge over a chasm leading to the negative energy plane, etc) and can prepare for it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cbas_10, post: 3818554, member: 55767"] I agree; the OP was using the word as originally defined; not as it is commonly used by various people/groups in politics. Anyway...as a huge skeptic of 4E, my reading here on these forums has opened my eyes to something about 4E that I like. The system of Saves becoming target numbers for the antagonist to roll against. Also, Reflex effectively becomes the old Touch AC. I still have many reservations, but I'm not keeping a closed mind.... Regarding the loss of save-or-die effects...I have no problem with that loss. If the rules were bent to make it impossible for PCs to be killed by various wierdness (such as falling when your flying mount is killed, being crushed by something huge, etc), that would be another story. But the majority of you I agree with. Save-or-die is not quite as fun or exciting. I still use that sort of thing in major climatic events, but the PCs are aware of those possibilities almost 100% of the time (knowing that an artifact is protected by a magical spell, knowing that they will have to cross a treacherous bridge over a chasm leading to the negative energy plane, etc) and can prepare for it. [/QUOTE]

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