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<blockquote data-quote="bowbe" data-source="post: 3819648" data-attributes="member: 6328">Seems people might be missing something that was brought to my attention recently about all the save or die-nessIf you have condition tracks and hit points blah blah and you no longer roll saving throws because the spellcaster is rolling to &quot;beat&quot; your &quot;static&quot; &quot;magical&quot; defense... and that spellcaster happens to be higher level than the PC because he is the &quot;BBG&quot; and has all the appropriate feats for &quot;improved crits&quot;... just like the PCs do... it is virtually the SAME as Save or die.In other words like in star wars if the sith lord has dominate powers, and he has his dominate powers buffed and rolls well... guess what? Your dominated.I have no doubt loopholes in the new editions of the rules will allow for exactly the same action with uber spells.Sure they don't say &quot;save or die&quot; anymore but really whats the difference if you get critted by a wizard with say &quot;improved crit level 7 lighting bolt&quot; That shoves your condition track to the &quot;dead&quot; threshold and rolling the save yourself?None. Someone else just rolled your save for you. Its semantic. You don't roll the save because someone else virtually &quot;rolls&quot; a magical attack. Or you roll your own save after someone says &quot;I cast slay living.&quot; Ok... one difference. With the talents and feat stacks that are inevitable in 4e your much less likely to survive someone else rolling against your static magic save than you would have been rolling your own traditional saving throw. Bottom line, your precious PC or BBG is just as dead. Case</blockquote>

[QUOTE="bowbe, post: 3819648, member: 6328"] Seems people might be missing something that was brought to my attention recently about all the save or die-ness If you have condition tracks and hit points blah blah and you no longer roll saving throws because the spellcaster is rolling to "beat" your "static" "magical" defense... and that spellcaster happens to be higher level than the PC because he is the "BBG" and has all the appropriate feats for "improved crits"... just like the PCs do... it is virtually the SAME as Save or die. In other words like in star wars if the sith lord has dominate powers, and he has his dominate powers buffed and rolls well... guess what? Your dominated. I have no doubt loopholes in the new editions of the rules will allow for exactly the same action with uber spells. Sure they don't say "save or die" anymore but really whats the difference if you get critted by a wizard with say "improved crit level 7 lighting bolt" That shoves your condition track to the "dead" threshold and rolling the save yourself? None. Someone else just rolled your save for you. Its semantic. You don't roll the save because someone else virtually "rolls" a magical attack. Or you roll your own save after someone says "I cast slay living." Ok... one difference. With the talents and feat stacks that are inevitable in 4e your much less likely to survive someone else rolling against your static magic save than you would have been rolling your own traditional saving throw. Bottom line, your precious PC or BBG is just as dead. Case [/QUOTE]

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