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<blockquote data-quote="Cbas_10" data-source="post: 3819886" data-attributes="member: 55767">I don't mean to pick on Cadfan, and not assuming he/she is anything but another gamer like me.&nbsp; However, I'm going to use this statement to help make a point that 3.5 is/wasn't broken - how people can run it has become broken.&nbsp; (read the whole post; i'll tie it together at the end)First...I really hope that, even if the party walked around the corner to see a lich, they had some sort of knowledge that it would be there.&nbsp; Rumors about the dungeon, clues in the dungeon, evidence of its work in the storyline, etc.&nbsp; A wandering monster lich is ... kinda like random mooks in an action movie that are master martial artists on their own.&nbsp; Bleh.DC 30 save? 10+9th level+7 (random example of 24 Int.)+4 from some other various modifiers.&nbsp; Well, I suppose you could intentionally pump a save DC that high if every NPC is always tweaked to efficiency like a Neverwinter Nights character (I play that game...not picking on the people - just how the gameplay is different from a tabletop setting).&nbsp; Characters of 19th level (rough estimate; a lich capable of that spell would be at least CR 19) will have various ther defenses or immunities.&nbsp; Wail has the Death and Sonic types to it.&nbsp; There is a number of ways to protect yourself when a spell has more than one type to it.&nbsp; The spell is a standard action, can't affect characters more than 40 feet away.&nbsp; At that level, there should be a number of ways for characters to beat the lich to the punch (quickened spells, smart wizards keeping a counterspell ready, being within charge range, bards' countersong, and more).&nbsp; Unless, of course, the lich was aware of the PCs approach and is casting the spell as a surprise....Now THAT is a dirty DM trick.So...looking at all of these factors, that last saving throw that determines &quot;Live or Die&quot; is really only one small piece of a larger puzzle required for the Lich to be able to snuff them out at once.&nbsp; However, there is a breed of players out there (much like a breed of DMs that would relish the idea of the Surprise Wail!), that wade into dungeons...no investigations, no rumor-mongering, no careful preparation beyond the *yawn* buff-buff-buff spells.Which breeds make up the strongest marketing demographics?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cbas_10, post: 3819886, member: 55767"] I don't mean to pick on Cadfan, and not assuming he/she is anything but another gamer like me. However, I'm going to use this statement to help make a point that 3.5 is/wasn't broken - how people can run it has become broken. (read the whole post; i'll tie it together at the end) First...I really hope that, even if the party walked around the corner to see a lich, they had some sort of knowledge that it would be there. Rumors about the dungeon, clues in the dungeon, evidence of its work in the storyline, etc. A wandering monster lich is ... kinda like random mooks in an action movie that are master martial artists on their own. Bleh. DC 30 save? 10+9th level+7 (random example of 24 Int.)+4 from some other various modifiers. Well, I suppose you could intentionally pump a save DC that high if every NPC is always tweaked to efficiency like a Neverwinter Nights character (I play that game...not picking on the people - just how the gameplay is different from a tabletop setting). Characters of 19th level (rough estimate; a lich capable of that spell would be at least CR 19) will have various ther defenses or immunities. Wail has the Death and Sonic types to it. There is a number of ways to protect yourself when a spell has more than one type to it. The spell is a standard action, can't affect characters more than 40 feet away. At that level, there should be a number of ways for characters to beat the lich to the punch (quickened spells, smart wizards keeping a counterspell ready, being within charge range, bards' countersong, and more). Unless, of course, the lich was aware of the PCs approach and is casting the spell as a surprise....Now THAT is a dirty DM trick. So...looking at all of these factors, that last saving throw that determines "Live or Die" is really only one small piece of a larger puzzle required for the Lich to be able to snuff them out at once. However, there is a breed of players out there (much like a breed of DMs that would relish the idea of the Surprise Wail!), that wade into dungeons...no investigations, no rumor-mongering, no careful preparation beyond the *yawn* buff-buff-buff spells. Which breeds make up the strongest marketing demographics? [/QUOTE]

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