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<blockquote data-quote="Cadfan" data-source="post: 3819935" data-attributes="member: 40961">I knew my post would garner negative responses, but I didn't expect them to be so... ridiculous.Lets review.&nbsp; Its an encounter with a lich.&nbsp; I didn't assume many details, but you can tell a couple.&nbsp; I put the party at level 20.&nbsp; I gave them ok ability scores, stat enhancers, and maximum strength cloaks of resistance.&nbsp; The ONLY thing that happened in the combat was that the lich won initiative, and cast the same spell twice.&nbsp; This created approximately a 75% casualty rate.1) This is not a meatgrinder.&nbsp; I don't know how anyone could call it that, its a two round excerpt from what should have been a climactic fight.2) DC 30 is not out of line for a lich casting a level 9 spell.&nbsp; Its relatively close to other CR 20 monsters.&nbsp; If he's a CR 20 lich, he's supposed to be an easy fight- one the players can take about four times in a given day.&nbsp; That makes him a level 18 wizard, with lich ability score bonuses.&nbsp; If you really don't like him at DC 30, change him to DC 27, the same as a Balor.&nbsp; I think that's cheating the lich a little bit, since he's only a spellcaster and the Balor's a melee machine.&nbsp; But fine, we'll play it your way.&nbsp; The party still dies.3) &quot;But the party should have known he was there!!!&quot;&nbsp; But he's a lich so he knew they were coming.&nbsp; Sure.&nbsp; Look, it doesn't really matter.&nbsp; Point is, no matter who knows who is where, the guy can toss out save or die effects repeatedly, which the party statistically fails about half the time as a collective whole.&nbsp; This is NOT climactic or dramatic, its just a lame way to end your character's career.4) Yes, Wail of the Banshee has both the Sonic and Death descriptors.&nbsp; The lich is a lich.&nbsp; Its got other spells.&nbsp; And if you want to rely on &quot;But!' reasoning, fine.&nbsp; &quot;But!&nbsp; The party scryed the lich and noticed that he likes that spell, so they used Death Ward!&quot;&nbsp; Ok.&nbsp; &quot;But!&nbsp; The lich scryed the party and noticed they cast death ward, so he cast Hold Monster, Mass, and had goblins slit the players throats.&quot;&nbsp; We can do this all night.&nbsp; The problem is the one shot kill effect and its abuses.5) Is it really unfair for a DM to do something as simple as have a bebg cast a good spell, twice?&nbsp; I mean, from a certain perspective, I agree.&nbsp; Casting the same spell twice and thereby killing 75% of the party makes the game suck, so a good DM won't do it.&nbsp; But the problem isn't just the DM.&nbsp; Its also the game design, which makes a very simple, very logical opening attack move (cast a good spell that's on the monster's spell list, maybe cast it again or something?) horribly abusive to the players.&nbsp; Rather than lambast the DM for using save-or-die in its logical manner, rework save-or-die.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cadfan, post: 3819935, member: 40961"] I knew my post would garner negative responses, but I didn't expect them to be so... ridiculous. Lets review. Its an encounter with a lich. I didn't assume many details, but you can tell a couple. I put the party at level 20. I gave them ok ability scores, stat enhancers, and maximum strength cloaks of resistance. The ONLY thing that happened in the combat was that the lich won initiative, and cast the same spell twice. This created approximately a 75% casualty rate. 1) This is not a meatgrinder. I don't know how anyone could call it that, its a two round excerpt from what [I]should[/I] have been a climactic fight. 2) DC 30 is not out of line for a lich casting a level 9 spell. Its relatively close to other CR 20 monsters. If he's a CR 20 lich, he's supposed to be an easy fight- one the players can take about four times in a given day. That makes him a level 18 wizard, with lich ability score bonuses. If you really don't like him at DC 30, change him to DC 27, the same as a Balor. I think that's cheating the lich a little bit, since he's only a spellcaster and the Balor's a melee machine. But fine, we'll play it your way. The party still dies. 3) "But the party should have known he was there!!!" But he's a lich so he knew they were coming. Sure. Look, it doesn't really matter. Point is, no matter who knows who is where, the guy can toss out save or die effects repeatedly, which the party statistically fails about half the time as a collective whole. This is NOT climactic or dramatic, its just a lame way to end your character's career. 4) Yes, Wail of the Banshee has both the Sonic and Death descriptors. The lich is a [I]lich.[/I] Its got other spells. And if you want to rely on "But!' reasoning, fine. "But! The party scryed the lich and noticed that he likes that spell, so they used Death Ward!" Ok. "But! The lich scryed the party and noticed they cast death ward, so he cast Hold Monster, Mass, and had goblins slit the players throats." We can do this all night. The problem is the one shot kill effect and its abuses. 5) Is it really unfair for a DM to do something as simple as have a bebg cast a good spell, twice? I mean, from a certain perspective, I agree. Casting the same spell twice and thereby killing 75% of the party makes the game suck, so a good DM won't do it. But the problem isn't just the DM. Its also the game design, which makes a very simple, very logical opening attack move (cast a good spell that's on the monster's spell list, maybe cast it again or something?) horribly abusive to the players. Rather than lambast the DM for using save-or-die in its logical manner, rework save-or-die. [/QUOTE]

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