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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DM-Rocco" data-source="post: 3820799" data-attributes="member: 14451">Well, you don't really know how much damage spells do in 4th edition either.  Maybe all spells will be kinder and gentler spells doing 1d2 damage per level save for half of it being subduel. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />  <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /> I think it is safe to say that in 3.0 and 3.5 wizards can generate massive amounts of damage at higher levels.  Whole threads have been dedicated to how to get in the most amount of damage in one round and not just from spell casters.  There are many threads that give rules for people to make a 16th level character and do at the least 100 points of damage with one sword swing or get your strength score up to 100 or try and do over 1,000 points of damage.So, for those of you complaining becuase the big bad lich has a wail of the banshee, think on this:Round one:  Lich cast sudden quickened Mord's followed by a suddened maximized and empowered time stop for 7 rounds of time stopping goodness.Round two: Lich cast quickened  wall of force to create a tigh cylinder around the party and then casts a delayed wall of force to top off the cylinder at the end of the time stop or in 6 round, 6 round remianing.Round three: Lich twiddles his thumbs, maybe sings a song, maybe delays his actions so he is at the top of intitative, does a few buffs but probably just talks to himself in a lengthy monologue, 5 round remianRound four:  Lich cast delayed blast fireball twice, once cast normally and once using his handy rod of quickend spells and delays each for 5 rounds 4 round remaining Round five: Lich follows up with two more delayed blast fireballs, delayed for 4 rounds, changing the properties to acid instead of fire using his Arch Mage class features, 3 rounds remainingRound six:  Lich follows up with two more delayed blast fireballs, delayed for 3 rounds, and changing the damage to cold, 2 rounds remainingRound seven: Lich casts an other delayed blast fireball, two if he has another rod of quickened spells, delays them for 2 rounds and changes the damage to electricity, 1 round remainingRound eight: Lich cast another delayed blast fireball delaying one round and chagning the damage to sonic, no remaining rounds in time stopRound nine:  Lich, at the top of the order, readies an action, just in case, to counter a spell, while he watches the:2 delayed blast fireballs (fire) 40d62 delayed blast fireballs (cold) 40d62 delayed blast fireballs (acid) 40d62 delayed blast fireballs (electric) 40d62 delayed blast fireballs (sonic) 40d6go off and the wall of force seal the top the cylinder.With no where to run or hide (you are surrounded on all sides by a wall of force) and with no protection (thanks to the mords) and no hope of casting an escape spell (thanks to the lich having the initative and a readied counter spells) all party members will take 200d6 (or 200-1,200) points of damage.  It should be a no save because of the walls of force, so even the rogue should die from this.  Even if the lich didn't have rods of quicken spells the Lich still does 100d6 (or 100-600) damage.  If he doesn't have enough 7th level slots to cast all of these (which he would if he were a sorcerer rather than a wizard) then he casts them as 8th level spells using heighten spell.Now I ask you, in addition to being very pretty with all the fun colors, do you think this is less deadly than a save or die spell? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool    :cool:"  data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" /> Sure, wail of the banshee is one spell, but the point is that the system is flawed, not the save or die effect.Yes, I use the save or die sparingly, and without it there are still plenty of ways of dieing or doing tons of damage, but that should not exclude such spells just because people can die from them.If that is the case then all characters should start with 100 hit points to avoid power word kills, no wait, 150 so they can't have harm cast on them.  Then take disease out of the game, specially the ones that do CON damage because you can die from them.I know that last bit is a little high strung, specially because no one really knows what is coming out of 4th edition, but the real question is, if they remove save or die effects, where do you stop?</blockquote>

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