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Message: <blockquote data-quote="bowbe" data-source="post: 3821719" data-attributes="member: 6328">Thanks for the big up Psion. Being totally ignored happens a lot to me ( I'm a school teacher by trade) hahaha!It's kinda like that thread a few days ago about "bait monsters" where it turned out they were talking about pulling popular monsters so you have to wait 1-x years to get the ones you want (or wait for Scott, Erica, Many Others,... Myself) to cook up monsters in the vein and calibur you want for a Tome 4e. I had thought bait monsters were "mooks" you brought out to get PCs to waste their "per encounter 1 shot abilities and spells" before you hit them with brutes and BBG's. Turns out I was wrong.  <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":]" title="Devious    :]" data-shortname=":]" /> Looking at saga, talking to people who play it and like the rules "For star wars" and how it works (for star wars) as a sort of skeletal frame of 4e it becomes apparent that all those "defenses" just mean someone else is rolling against you instead of putting the save in your hands. Heck, sometimes in big battles, I make PCs roll my monster's attack rolls (against their PC) and the damage while I book-keep and direct the actions my baddies take. In other words just as many reasons to get po'ed at the DM, except this time instead of making you roll the rolls to save your characters life, he's rolling the rolls to kill em off (with magic, psionics, whatever). I have every confidence that just about every rule in 4e will be able to be broken/twinked/worked around by clever players and DMs as it has in every other instance of the game.Anyone remember the Godzilla Gerbil? For those who don't thats a 1e trick for a high level druid with a circle of his own to repeated cast animal growth till you have a gerbil the size of godzilla. (or bunny, or cat, or squirrel). I can't speak to 2e broken stuff as I didn't play it that much, we used bits we liked but stuck mostly to 1e. 3.xe broken combos, spells and such are the bread and butter of en-world's rules section. Well documented. Heck, it didn't take us long to figure out how to get an intelligent, fast moving barbarian with a pole arm into position to turn the guy into a virtual ranged attack weapon with a potential x3 raged crit stacked with power attack. (That got even BETTER with 3.5 edition... I even told guys at Wizards that it would, and thanked them for not taking my suggestion to nix the double strength damage for two handed weapons or clear up the language so you couldn't whirlwind attack everything as described "in reach". Ah well. Worked for me for years!I've noticed some folks render their dissapointment with 3.5 wizards and I understand their agony. Of course I remember pre-erata 3.0 wizards and the elation a lot of wizard players that I knew had with the 2 spells per round action they were pulling off of haste and quicken spell feat made it even better for some players (3 magic missiles in a round...hootananny! Wraiths and shadows were dropping like flies!) It will take about a week of the rules being actually in the hands of the gaming public for someone to figure out how to turn every decent offensive spell into a "kill" effect.I have some friends and former playtesters that are absolutely NUTS about Saga Star Wars and they cannot WAIT to play 4e because they have already broken Star Wars. With the right combo's of talents, feats, action points, force points, and hero points, immediate actions, free actions, standard actions ect... they have managed to figure out how to get re-use of most of their 1 use per encounter force points (One guy is up to 3 re-uses) and how to squeeze multiple actions out of a round (another guy is up to 3 actions). All legal and by the book Rules As Written. 4e will likely be pretty much the same. If they can do that with star wars and one rule book, I can't wait to see what people manage to pull off in D&D 4e with 3 books to monkey around with.  Case</blockquote>

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