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<blockquote data-quote="Grog" data-source="post: 3832191" data-attributes="member: 6183">Or attacks with surprise, which is hardly an uncommon event in most adventures.Sure, if the party isn't surprised, and if the party wizard or cleric wins initiative, and if the cleric fails his save against their SOD attack (clerics have good Fort saves, remember), they will be spared the save-or-die attack. But it's just as likely that that won't be the case, which means this enemy who's supposed to be insignificant has at least a 30% chance of killing a PC.Compare that to what a 13th level fighter could realistically do to a 17th level party, and you begin to see why save-or-dies are so problematic.&nbsp;He doesn't even have to be optimized. With max ranks in Concentration (and what else is a cleric going to put skill points into?), even just a 16 or 18 Con gives him a +19 or +20 to his casting defensively check vs. DC 22. That's not a significant chance of failure, and unless the fighter is using a spiked chain, he could probably just 5' step away and remove the need for casting defensively entirely.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Grog, post: 3832191, member: 6183"] Or attacks with surprise, which is hardly an uncommon event in most adventures. Sure, [b]if[/b] the party isn't surprised, and [b]if[/b] the party wizard or cleric wins initiative, and [b]if[/b] the cleric fails his save against their SOD attack (clerics have good Fort saves, remember), they will be spared the save-or-die attack. But it's just as likely that that won't be the case, which means this enemy who's supposed to be insignificant has at least a 30% chance of killing a PC. Compare that to what a 13th level fighter could realistically do to a 17th level party, and you begin to see why save-or-dies are so problematic. He doesn't even have to be optimized. With max ranks in Concentration (and what else is a cleric going to put skill points into?), even just a 16 or 18 Con gives him a +19 or +20 to his casting defensively check vs. DC 22. That's not a significant chance of failure, and unless the fighter is using a spiked chain, he could probably just 5' step away and remove the need for casting defensively entirely. [/QUOTE]

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