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<blockquote data-quote="Cadfan" data-source="post: 3833794" data-attributes="member: 40961">Raven Crowking- Thanks for the reply.In no particular order,Re: the save or die from coup de gras, etc.In part this is a problem of poor terminology.&nbsp; I don't think most people consider the save from a coup de gras attack to be a &quot;save or die&quot; effect, even though in a literal sense you are making a save to see if you die.&nbsp; The concern is with effects that take an otherwise healthy character, bypass all of their secondary defenses (hit points, ability scores, etc), and render them instantly dead.&nbsp; Those other forum members who dislike save or die effects can correct me if I am wrong, but I think there is approval for things like coup de gras.Re: immersed in lava.Agreed.&nbsp; The save represents you not falling in the lava.&nbsp; Or at least not falling all the way into the lava.&nbsp; That's why its usually a reflex save for this sort of thing.&nbsp; Reflex saves are generally not permitted if a character is immobilized.&nbsp; I personally extend this to situations where there is nowhere to dodge to.&nbsp; I will assume that in most situations you can &quot;dodge&quot; by raising your hands in front of your face, perhaps to cover from a fireball.&nbsp; But if you're dropped into a pool of lava and there's nowhere to go that isn't also lava, there's no dodging taking place.Re: level drain.I'm ok with any solution they come up with that minimizes my bookkeeping efforts and avoids splitting the party permanently by level.&nbsp;&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm not sure that can be done.&nbsp; But if it can, great.&nbsp; There are a number of ways this could be fixed by changing the EXP structure, though I'm not sure if its worth it.&nbsp; If EXP requirements per level increased exponentially, then losing one level worth of EXP would be a big deal for that level, but a small deal the next level, and a trivial deal the level after that.&nbsp; That's just an example.&nbsp; I don't know what solution is best.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cadfan, post: 3833794, member: 40961"] Raven Crowking- Thanks for the reply. In no particular order, Re: the save or die from coup de gras, etc. In part this is a problem of poor terminology. I don't think most people consider the save from a coup de gras attack to be a "save or die" effect, even though in a literal sense you are making a save to see if you die. The concern is with effects that take an otherwise healthy character, bypass all of their secondary defenses (hit points, ability scores, etc), and render them instantly dead. Those other forum members who dislike save or die effects can correct me if I am wrong, but I think there is approval for things like coup de gras. Re: immersed in lava. Agreed. The save represents you not falling in the lava. Or at least not falling all the way into the lava. That's why its usually a reflex save for this sort of thing. Reflex saves are generally not permitted if a character is immobilized. I personally extend this to situations where there is nowhere to dodge to. I will assume that in most situations you can "dodge" by raising your hands in front of your face, perhaps to cover from a fireball. But if you're dropped into a pool of lava and there's nowhere to go that isn't also lava, there's no dodging taking place. Re: level drain. I'm ok with any solution they come up with that minimizes my bookkeeping efforts and avoids splitting the party permanently by level. :) I'm not sure that can be done. But if it can, great. There are a number of ways this could be fixed by changing the EXP structure, though I'm not sure if its worth it. If EXP requirements per level increased exponentially, then losing one level worth of EXP would be a big deal for that level, but a small deal the next level, and a trivial deal the level after that. That's just an example. I don't know what solution is best. [/QUOTE]

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