Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="Cadfan" data-source="post: 3834238" data-attributes="member: 40961">Well, it could indicate those things, but I think we can reason through which one it does indicate.&nbsp; And I think its safe to say that what we're going to find is that save-or-die does not play well with the entire concept of &quot;game balance&quot; and therefore the CR system unless you accept resurrection magic as freely available, and demote &quot;dead&quot; to a status effect.In a system with freely accessible resurrection magic, all you need to do to balance a monster with a save-or-die ability is to make sure that its CR is such that it will be encountered primarily by characters who can afford to remedy the damage it does, ie, get resurrected.*&nbsp; That's easy enough.Take away access to resurrection, and suddenly &quot;save-or-die&quot; becomes equivalent to &quot;save-or-this-character-permanently-goes away.&quot;&nbsp; I don't think you can &quot;balance&quot; that.&nbsp; At what level is it appropriate for a character to encounter something which, regardless of character action or inaction, gives that character a 25% chance of being permanently destroyed?&nbsp; No level at all.&nbsp; There's nothing a level gives you that makes encountering that 25% chance more or less appropriate.&nbsp; The only thing a level can do for you is increase that chance or decrease it.Its a problem inherent to all or nothing type effects.&nbsp; The only tools the game currently has for handling these particular all or nothing effects is to increase or decrease the chance of them occurring, and to provide counter magic that negates them entirely.*I put this asterisk in to note that spells like &quot;Death Ward&quot; become available at earlier levels than resurrection.&nbsp; I do not feel that these provide an adequate protection, simply because characters, not being omniscient, do not always know when they will encounter death magic.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cadfan, post: 3834238, member: 40961"] Well, it [I]could [/I]indicate those things, but I think we can reason through which one it [I]does[/I] indicate. And I think its safe to say that what we're going to find is that save-or-die does not play well with the entire concept of "game balance" and therefore the CR system unless you accept resurrection magic as freely available, and demote "dead" to a status effect. In a system with freely accessible resurrection magic, all you need to do to balance a monster with a save-or-die ability is to make sure that its CR is such that it will be encountered primarily by characters who can afford to remedy the damage it does, ie, get resurrected.* That's easy enough. Take away access to resurrection, and suddenly "save-or-die" becomes equivalent to "save-or-this-character-permanently-goes away." I don't think you [I]can[/I] "balance" that. At what level is it appropriate for a character to encounter something which, regardless of character action or inaction, gives that character a 25% chance of being permanently destroyed? No level at all. There's nothing a level gives you that makes encountering that 25% chance more or less appropriate. The only thing a level can do for you is increase that chance or decrease it. Its a problem inherent to all or nothing type effects. The only tools the game currently has for handling these particular all or nothing effects is to increase or decrease the chance of them occurring, and to provide counter magic that negates them entirely. *I put this asterisk in to note that spells like "Death Ward" become available at earlier levels than resurrection. I do not feel that these provide an adequate protection, simply because characters, not being omniscient, do not always know when they will encounter death magic. [/QUOTE]

Verification