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<blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 3836399" data-attributes="member: 18280">No, because it isn't true that characters may not actually have to roll saves, nor is true that the purpose is to allow the DM to &quot;threaten players&quot;.The goal of the DM is not &quot;to kill the PCs&quot;.&nbsp; The goal of the DM is not to &quot;prevent the PCs from dying&quot;.&nbsp; The goal of the DM is to provide a play experience.If the goal of the DM was to kill the PCs, he needn't bother with a saving throw.&nbsp; He could just include &quot;die&quot; effects.Likewise, if the goal was to preserve the PCs at all casts, he needn't provide a saving throw.&nbsp; He could just include &quot;live&quot; effects.The good DM seeks, IMHO and IME, to provide both context for PC choices and consequences (both good and ill) for those choices.&nbsp; What some view as a &quot;gotcha&quot; monster, others can easily use to build tension and suspense, and to allow players to make choices based upon differing contexts.This is, IMHO, the difference between an encounter where the PCs have no chance and an encounter where the PCs simply need to consider how the encounter should be handled.&nbsp; If you throw a troll against lvl 1 PCs as a combat encounter, the PCs will be slaughtered.&nbsp; This doesn't mean that there are not contexts in which level 1 PCs can encounter a troll without being slaughtered.&nbsp; If the DM sets up 1st level PCs with a troll encounter, and ensures that the players know that the troll can be dealt with outside of combat, but the players choose to fight the troll anyway, the DM should not, IMHO, invalidate that decision by saving them.SoD monsters, IMHO, are no different.RC</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Raven Crowking, post: 3836399, member: 18280"] No, because it isn't true that characters may not actually have to roll saves, nor is true that the purpose is to allow the DM to "threaten players". The goal of the DM is not "to kill the PCs". The goal of the DM is not to "prevent the PCs from dying". The goal of the DM is to provide a play experience. If the goal of the DM was to kill the PCs, he needn't bother with a saving throw. He could just include "die" effects. Likewise, if the goal was to preserve the PCs at all casts, he needn't provide a saving throw. He could just include "live" effects. The good DM seeks, IMHO and IME, to provide both context for PC choices and consequences (both good and ill) for those choices. What some view as a "gotcha" monster, others can easily use to build tension and suspense, and to allow players to make choices based upon differing contexts. This is, IMHO, the difference between an encounter where the PCs have no chance and an encounter where the PCs simply need to consider how the encounter should be handled. If you throw a troll against lvl 1 PCs as a combat encounter, the PCs will be slaughtered. This doesn't mean that there are not contexts in which level 1 PCs can encounter a troll without being slaughtered. If the DM sets up 1st level PCs with a troll encounter, and ensures that the players know that the troll can be dealt with outside of combat, but the players choose to fight the troll anyway, the DM should not, IMHO, invalidate that decision by saving them. SoD monsters, IMHO, are no different. RC [/QUOTE]

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