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<blockquote data-quote="Cadfan" data-source="post: 3838818" data-attributes="member: 40961">At 10th level, the wizard's fort save will be what, a +7, optimistically, with good gear?So is the consensus that I'm hearing that at level 10 it is appropriate to have an encounter in which an enemy can inflict on the party wizard a 60% chance of death per round, until the enemy is killed?Lets keep designing our hypothetical monster.&nbsp; How many hit points does he have?&nbsp; This controls how many rounds he will last.&nbsp; Then we can take (1-.6)^x where X is the number of rounds he will survive.&nbsp; The result will be the likelihood the wizard lives through the fight.We can rework the numbers for level 12, if people feel that's more appropriate.&nbsp; I don't mind.The point of this exercise is that people have been claiming that save-or-die is not the problem with monsters like the bodak, the CR system which puts the bodak at CR8 is.&nbsp; If no appropriate character level exists at which a DC 20 ranged fort save or die attack is appropriate, then the problem certainly isn't the CR system, its the save-or-die system.By &quot;recover from the consequences&quot; do you mean &quot;raise dead?&quot;Its ok if you do.&nbsp; I will concede that in games where &quot;raise dead&quot; is considered an every day method of fixing up bad things that happen in a fight, save-or-die is much, much less of a concern.&nbsp; In fact, its about the same concern as save-or-go-blind.&nbsp; I don't personally play that way, but kudos to those who do.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cadfan, post: 3838818, member: 40961"] At 10th level, the wizard's fort save will be what, a +7, optimistically, with good gear? So is the consensus that I'm hearing that at level 10 it is appropriate to have an encounter in which an enemy can inflict on the party wizard a 60% chance of death per round, until the enemy is killed? Lets keep designing our hypothetical monster. How many hit points does he have? This controls how many rounds he will last. Then we can take (1-.6)^x where X is the number of rounds he will survive. The result will be the likelihood the wizard lives through the fight. We can rework the numbers for level 12, if people feel that's more appropriate. I don't mind. The point of this exercise is that people have been claiming that save-or-die is not the problem with monsters like the bodak, the CR system which puts the bodak at CR8 is. If no appropriate character level exists at which a DC 20 ranged fort save or die attack is appropriate, then the problem certainly isn't the CR system, its the save-or-die system. By "recover from the consequences" do you mean "raise dead?" Its ok if you do. I will concede that in games where "raise dead" is considered an every day method of fixing up bad things that happen in a fight, save-or-die is much, much less of a concern. In fact, its about the same concern as save-or-go-blind. I don't personally play that way, but kudos to those who do. [/QUOTE]

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