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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cadfan" data-source="post: 3839240" data-attributes="member: 40961">In general response to Geron Raveneye,That's not exactly my opinion.  My opinions are more these:  1: Save-or-die creates a lot of problems.  It does not add a ton to the game.  The problems include, in short, ruining major combats by killing off bad guys instantly, ruining all combats by killing off players instantly, and creating a "yes-huh/nuh-uh" binary in which each save-or-die is canceled out by an anti-save-or-die spell that sounds more like 8 year olds playing soldier than a game of D&D.2: The only things save-or-die adds to the game are, first, a threat of immediate character death, and second, enabling a "die/resurrect/die again" style of gameplay that some people enjoy.3: Those things that it does add can generally be put back into the game through some other method which does not create the problems created by save-or-die. 4: The CR system doesn't break save-or-die, save-or-die breaks the CR system.  And in fact, its going to break any system for estimating balanced combats because it is an all-or-nothing effect in a game not built around all-or-nothing effects.One of the common defenses of save-or-die is that they make good threats to use against characters so that the players have to find a way around encountering the threat.  This is the defense you mount in your "planned encounter" response.  This is one particular instance in which I think save-or-die can be easily replaced with other kinds of threats.  As Doug McCrae aptly points out, in such a scenario you might as well get rid of the save.  Its not adding anything to the fight.Looking at the two examples you gave, you put the same monster as appropriate for either level 8, or level 22, depending on context.  That's pretty extreme, and creates its own problems, primarily related to the monster's hit points.  I'm going to look at those examples, and suggest an alternative.In both cases, the monster you described was essentially a glass cannon.  That's fine and all.  I just think that a different cannon might make the encounters better.In the first, thanks to knowing the monster was coming, the party basically casts a spell that reads "the monster's glass cannon doesn't work now."  Then they chop it into little pieces.  Deprived of its cannon, its essentially a medium sized mook.  While its fun to prep and use your preparation to obtain an easier win, I think this is overdoing it.  The small amount of preparation necessary (notice monster, cast death ward) to create such a high degree of nerfing seems out of proportion.In the second, the monster gets to keep his glass cannon, making him appropriate versus only epic characters.  In this case, if the players make their saves, the monster is a really pathetic mook since it was killable by level 8 character in 2 to 3 rounds, and the power curve of the game means that a level 22 party is going to eat this creature alive.  It might literally require one melee hit to kill.  If the players don't make their saves, its a random encounter that attritions basically no resources whatsoever off the party, except that the cleric loses a casting of a Raise Dead spell.Also note the disasters that occur if this monster is used outside of the bounds you've specified.  I'm sure you can work them out.Now lets create an alternative glass cannon, and see how it fares.  We'll give it the same physical stats (killable in 2 to 3 roundsby level 8 characters), and we'll give it a glass cannon of its own, but not one which is all or nothing.  Lets give it... the ability to arc electricity at an attacker for a large amount of damage, an amount that's genuinely frightening to a level 8 character, but which won't kill him in one hit.  We'll give reflex for half, no attack roll.Now, at level 8, if the players scout the monster out, they can cast spells that protect from energy, and have an encounter similar to what you described in your example number 1.At levels above 8, the monster gets closer and closer to, and eventually becomes, a decent, balanced encounter without preparation.  Lets say that at level 12, its a decent fight without preparation.  Everyone has better reflex saves, more hit points, they can kill it faster, and the party's healing is more powerful.By level 22, the monster is undoubtedly a trivial threat.  Enter monster number 2, which is the same thing advanced in hit dice, or whatever the relevant language is in 4e.By changing the save-or-die cannon of the original glass cannon to a powerful attack that isn't all or nothing, the monster retains the threat it originally created, and yet becomes appropriate for all kinds of other uses.  Its usable in all the same ways as the original, plus some, and with a seriously reduced potential for catastrophe if used in a way outside of its original, very tight bounds.</blockquote>

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