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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Is 5e Basically Becoming Pathfinder 2e?
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7258983" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>It's primarily the amount of content & slow pace of release. Fundamentally, 5e & 3.x/PF are pretty similar. They both standardize resolution on the d20, have all classes advancing on the same table, getting HD every level, give fighter-types more attacks as they level up, have full casters using 1st-9th level spells, cover levels 1-20, pass out stat bumps & feats, and use 'modular' MCing.</p><p></p><p>5e is just turned down from 11. Release a book-a-month for a couple years and it'd collapse just as badly. </p><p></p><p> If anything 3.5 - and the community, itself - made it worse. When my old group started playing 3.0, it did not seem that bad. There were no CoDzillas or WoCLW or SoD rocket tag out of the gate, in part because no one played a Wizard (or Druid, but there was a Sorcerer) and the two Clerics both multi-classed. Keeping the lid on was a testimony to brinksmanship and player restraint, but it never really went that far off the rails, even under 3.5, until we hit about level 12 or 13. The campaign wrapped at 14th. </p><p></p><p>But, over in the broader community, and almost every time I stepped into a 3.5 game at a convention, things were just going nuts. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p> The whole point of PF was to preserve all that 'broken' in the face of 4e butchering sacred cows to fix it all. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> No small part of the point of 5e was to get back to it, and it has. Turned down from 11, but back. 5e went back to a similar design paradigm as 2e & 3e. It's muted, a bit, by BA, but it's all still there. You have good and bad saves, only now instead of one or two good and two or one bad, it's two good and four bad - and, as in 3e, DCs are based on casters' best stat while the save bonus can easily come from your worst. Instead of Good BAB & itterative attacks you have Extra Attack. Instead of bad BAB but touch attacks, casters just attack AC with their best stat & proficiency, like everyone else. 5e even has it's own, different cracks, like in 3e, save DCs got crazy but they were based on spell level so only a few spells/day could have that highest DC, in 5e, DCs are all based on character level, so every spell, 1st or 9th or whatever, same DC. </p><p>The gap between the prepped casters and fighter in 5e is Tier 1 to Tier 4 instead of the 1-to-5 gulf it was in 3.5. There's probably more classes in Tier 2 & 3, relative to 4-6, other than that, as well. </p><p></p><p>As far as 'ground-up,' if 'ground' is 1st level, I think 3.5, or at least 3.0, probably worked a shade better than 5e. From 3rd or 5th or so on, though, 5e can't hold a candle to the brokenness of 3.x, I mean, there's a reason 3.5 got the 'E6' treatment, because it started blowing up so badly right at 7th with Polymorph. 5e at least waits to the low double digits.</p><p></p><p>Really, that's just the 'sweet spot.' 3.x, it was 1 to 6 maybe up to 10 if you banned certain tricks; 5e it starts at 3-5 and goes up to 10 or so. The neat thing is that the exp tables show some awareness of the sweet spot, they're very quick the first two levels, slowing substantially after 4th, and speeding up again after 11th.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7258983, member: 996"] It's primarily the amount of content & slow pace of release. Fundamentally, 5e & 3.x/PF are pretty similar. They both standardize resolution on the d20, have all classes advancing on the same table, getting HD every level, give fighter-types more attacks as they level up, have full casters using 1st-9th level spells, cover levels 1-20, pass out stat bumps & feats, and use 'modular' MCing. 5e is just turned down from 11. Release a book-a-month for a couple years and it'd collapse just as badly. If anything 3.5 - and the community, itself - made it worse. When my old group started playing 3.0, it did not seem that bad. There were no CoDzillas or WoCLW or SoD rocket tag out of the gate, in part because no one played a Wizard (or Druid, but there was a Sorcerer) and the two Clerics both multi-classed. Keeping the lid on was a testimony to brinksmanship and player restraint, but it never really went that far off the rails, even under 3.5, until we hit about level 12 or 13. The campaign wrapped at 14th. But, over in the broader community, and almost every time I stepped into a 3.5 game at a convention, things were just going nuts. ;) The whole point of PF was to preserve all that 'broken' in the face of 4e butchering sacred cows to fix it all. ;) No small part of the point of 5e was to get back to it, and it has. Turned down from 11, but back. 5e went back to a similar design paradigm as 2e & 3e. It's muted, a bit, by BA, but it's all still there. You have good and bad saves, only now instead of one or two good and two or one bad, it's two good and four bad - and, as in 3e, DCs are based on casters' best stat while the save bonus can easily come from your worst. Instead of Good BAB & itterative attacks you have Extra Attack. Instead of bad BAB but touch attacks, casters just attack AC with their best stat & proficiency, like everyone else. 5e even has it's own, different cracks, like in 3e, save DCs got crazy but they were based on spell level so only a few spells/day could have that highest DC, in 5e, DCs are all based on character level, so every spell, 1st or 9th or whatever, same DC. The gap between the prepped casters and fighter in 5e is Tier 1 to Tier 4 instead of the 1-to-5 gulf it was in 3.5. There's probably more classes in Tier 2 & 3, relative to 4-6, other than that, as well. As far as 'ground-up,' if 'ground' is 1st level, I think 3.5, or at least 3.0, probably worked a shade better than 5e. From 3rd or 5th or so on, though, 5e can't hold a candle to the brokenness of 3.x, I mean, there's a reason 3.5 got the 'E6' treatment, because it started blowing up so badly right at 7th with Polymorph. 5e at least waits to the low double digits. Really, that's just the 'sweet spot.' 3.x, it was 1 to 6 maybe up to 10 if you banned certain tricks; 5e it starts at 3-5 and goes up to 10 or so. The neat thing is that the exp tables show some awareness of the sweet spot, they're very quick the first two levels, slowing substantially after 4th, and speeding up again after 11th. [/QUOTE]
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