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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Flamestrike" data-source="post: 8073423" data-attributes="member: 6788736">Yeah man totally agree.DnD has some gonzo assumptions in its core rules. A casual look at the class features that come online from T2 onwards clearly shows this, as does a casual glance at the expectations of play at higher tiers. The DMG expressly breaks these tiers down into:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tier 1: Levels 1-4 - Local Heroes.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tier 2: Levels 5-10 - Heroes of the Realm.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tier 3: Levels 11-16 - Masters of the Realm.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tier 4: Levels 17-20 - Masters of the World.</li> </ul>At even lowly Tier 1, the PCs are the local heroes (equal in status to MCU's Netflix Defenders) with the same level of power and responsibility; defeating local threats to the city or town or region of the realm they find themselves in. They're no match for Avengers level superheroes, but they're 'street level' heroes in their own right.By T2-3 the PCs are at X-Men levels of power. Able to save the entire realm from existential threats, using amazing powers including flight, shapeshifting, raising the dead, firing energy beams, disintegrating things, controlling the elements and the weather, teleporting, beating up Demons with their bare fists, taking on fire breathing dragons and winning, and so forth.By T4, the PCs are at MCU Avengers levels of power.  They're literally manipulating cosmic energy, altering reality, travelling to (and creating) alternate dimensions, cloning themselves, achieving superhuman stats (over 20) via tomes and boons or even simply via class features, matching wits with and defeating Gods and Dukes of Hell in a fist fight, and dealing with existential threats to the whole world (or perhaps even the entire universe).I dont run 'gonzo' campaigns as a rule, and cleave pretty closely to the DMG expectations of magic item distribution, and run core campaign worlds, with core classes, and few house rules. My 20th level PCs likely have a legendary item or two, a rare or very rare item or two and a few uncommons. There might be an artifact in the party (befitting 20th level PCs'), and they've likely come across the odd Tome or received the odd Boon with every PC boasting at least one superhuman Ability score of over 20.That's not unusual for high level play, and I've run (and played in) a number of high level campaigns across the editions in over 35 years of play, and it's consistent in the core assumptions.Now again; people can run games without magic items, or with house rules designed to curb those levels of power (fumble rules, instant death rules, other nerfs). But the fact remains if you cleave to the expectations of core DnD, you're winding up with (and are expected to wind up with) heroes capable of dealing with existential threats to the whole world, if not the entire universe, by the time you hit T4.</blockquote>

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