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Is 5e still full of Save or Dies?
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<blockquote data-quote="Madeiner" data-source="post: 6621166" data-attributes="member: 61624"><p>Hi there.</p><p></p><p>I'm in the process of switching from pathfinder over to 5e. I don't necessarily like 5e that much, but i can't stand how slow the combat has become in pathfinder at level 14.</p><p></p><p>That said, i usually run combat encounters that are very similar to MMORPG fights, so any spell or ability that completely removes one or more enemy from a fight is discouraged, or allows the fight to be <strong>tactically won</strong> and my players will not use it.</p><p></p><p>For reference, i use <strong>tactically won</strong> to indicate that a a combat encounter can continue with no risk of death or consequences for the PCs, probably not even consuming resources. Also, a tactically won fight that does <strong>not </strong>result in all enemies dead, it means it is pointless to continue the fight, so i just describe the victory.</p><p></p><p>I was under impression that they removed the Save or Die spells, but maybe i am mistaken.</p><p></p><p><strong>Forcecage</strong> is a SoD spell with no save. If there's a single enemy and it doesnt have ranged attacks, or weak ranged attack, the encounter is tactically won with this single spell. If that happens, i'll just narrate how the PCs pepper the enemy with arrows as he helplessy awaits his death.</p><p></p><p><strong>Banishment</strong> has the same issue. If the encounter has 6 creatures, so that the challenge is overcoming the action economy and balanced around trying to win outnumbered by using clever tactics to delay them, if you banish 3 of them instantly the encounter is tactically won. The PCs will stomp over 3 creatures that were designed to proved a challenge if there were 6 of them. For me, that encounter is tactically won aswell.</p><p></p><p><strong>Contagion </strong>is also well known on forums. If you can stun an enemy for 3 rounds, the encounter is tactically over as well. Narrate how the PCs win.</p><p></p><p><strong>Simulacrum</strong> seems to have the same issue for me. I read the forums and people talk about a simulacrum army. I don't really understand what's that supposed to me. Reading the spell, i know i'd never allow more than one simulacrum anyway, under any circumstances.</p><p>But still, even ONE simulacrum is a problem for me, because it doubles someone's power. If the encounter was carefully balanced for a party of four, having a fifth level 14 member will skew the balance, and guess what? I either design encounter for a party of five (for a net difference of 0 for this ability for which a PC has spent resources) OR i don't take it into account and guess what? An encounter designed for four people that actually has 5, is over as soon as it begins.</p><p></p><p>How do you guys </p><p>deal with that? I'm really curious.</p><p>Also, anywhere i can find a list of these kind of abilities so that i can ban/fix them for my playstyle?</p><p>Most of my fun in combat encounter is seeing how the PCs overcome the monsters, which are full of tricks and special abilities, by using wits and finding their one or two weaknesses.</p><p>If they don't even get to act twice, i get really bored from combat and i'll tend to skip it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Madeiner, post: 6621166, member: 61624"] Hi there. I'm in the process of switching from pathfinder over to 5e. I don't necessarily like 5e that much, but i can't stand how slow the combat has become in pathfinder at level 14. That said, i usually run combat encounters that are very similar to MMORPG fights, so any spell or ability that completely removes one or more enemy from a fight is discouraged, or allows the fight to be [B]tactically won[/B] and my players will not use it. For reference, i use [B]tactically won[/B] to indicate that a a combat encounter can continue with no risk of death or consequences for the PCs, probably not even consuming resources. Also, a tactically won fight that does [B]not [/B]result in all enemies dead, it means it is pointless to continue the fight, so i just describe the victory. I was under impression that they removed the Save or Die spells, but maybe i am mistaken. [B]Forcecage[/B] is a SoD spell with no save. If there's a single enemy and it doesnt have ranged attacks, or weak ranged attack, the encounter is tactically won with this single spell. If that happens, i'll just narrate how the PCs pepper the enemy with arrows as he helplessy awaits his death. [B]Banishment[/B] has the same issue. If the encounter has 6 creatures, so that the challenge is overcoming the action economy and balanced around trying to win outnumbered by using clever tactics to delay them, if you banish 3 of them instantly the encounter is tactically won. The PCs will stomp over 3 creatures that were designed to proved a challenge if there were 6 of them. For me, that encounter is tactically won aswell. [B]Contagion [/B]is also well known on forums. If you can stun an enemy for 3 rounds, the encounter is tactically over as well. Narrate how the PCs win. [B]Simulacrum[/B] seems to have the same issue for me. I read the forums and people talk about a simulacrum army. I don't really understand what's that supposed to me. Reading the spell, i know i'd never allow more than one simulacrum anyway, under any circumstances. But still, even ONE simulacrum is a problem for me, because it doubles someone's power. If the encounter was carefully balanced for a party of four, having a fifth level 14 member will skew the balance, and guess what? I either design encounter for a party of five (for a net difference of 0 for this ability for which a PC has spent resources) OR i don't take it into account and guess what? An encounter designed for four people that actually has 5, is over as soon as it begins. How do you guys deal with that? I'm really curious. Also, anywhere i can find a list of these kind of abilities so that i can ban/fix them for my playstyle? Most of my fun in combat encounter is seeing how the PCs overcome the monsters, which are full of tricks and special abilities, by using wits and finding their one or two weaknesses. If they don't even get to act twice, i get really bored from combat and i'll tend to skip it. [/QUOTE]
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