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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 7932757" data-attributes="member: 93670">Counter to a ghoul in 3.5 was either hero's feast, certain PrC's that change how you react to fear, or high ac plus an ally paying attention to make sure you aren't left high & dry subject to a cou de gras (instant kill as a full round action) if you fail your save...While it could be,  your getting a bad impression because certain people are arguing in bad faith acting like they needed to be countered 100% every time.  A lot of the creatures being discussed forced the group to work together in coordination as a team.  The wraith could decimate a plate & shield wearing fighter tank type yes, but a dex build like many rogues & rangers who would get torn apart by things that had a chance of hitting that tank would have a decent chance of avoiding a goo percentage of the attacks & shine at it because everyone else is terrified of it.... Once it was over, or even in the middle if things got bad a support class type could  shine by doing things to mitigate the problems.  Sure it might be painful to do, but sometimes the fact that it was painful was the reason the gm pulled out those critters.What it all comes down to is that 3.5 had a lot of monsters, spells, & effects that could trigger a near rock papers scissors matchups.  The system mastery problem you note wasn't really an issue there because a lot of them were low level even if there were higher cr versions (many did).  The first time you encounter those creatures you might be thrown for a loop & it's up to the gm to make sure they don't over do it too early.  The challenge those creatures presented was that the group needed to shift gears & switch up the strategy (possibly on the fly in the thick of things) instead of 5e's faceroll through yet another fight just as they did every one of the couple hundred bodies they left behind over the last week.</blockquote>

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