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Message: <blockquote data-quote="JiffyPopTart" data-source="post: 7935105" data-attributes="member: 4881">Data Point:  Last night I had a 3 person 4th level party TPK in 5e.  The 4th player was out this week and the party chose to go forward with the adventure without the extra character despite knowing it was dangerous.  I tried to tweak down some things to give them a fighting chance (Lowering some damage rolls, giving them multiple rounds while everything charged at them from range, merging dead rat swarms when they got to single digits) but the tweaking wasn't tweaky enough.The encounter was a sewer with the traditional 2 ledges and a channel of filth in the middle.  The bad guys were 1 adult oblex and 8 rat swarms (divided into 2 "lines" of 4 swarms each running up the two side ledges towards the party.  The oblex was in the filth channel also moving towards them under the water (I made it count as cover).The rats/oblex started 200' away from the party and were visible due to light arrows being fired into the passageway.  The rats charged up both sides and the oblex charged up the middle.  Due to the speed difference the rats got to the PC's two turns before the oblex did.The party prepared by oiling up the two ledges and setting it aflame while the sorcerer kept "walking" their moonbeam spell so that one of the two lines of rats had to all run through it each turn.Eventually the oblex got close enough to cast Hold Person, and it was pretty much game over from that point.  I downgraded it to 2nd level so it could only target one character per turn and it Held the ranger.  The rats got around the flames and through the moonbeam gauntlet with half their number remaining.  1 on the fighter, 1 on the sorcerer, and 2 on the ranger.Next turn the oblex cast Hold Person on the fighter (I allowed it to concentrate on 2 of these since it could have done so if I hadn't downgraded its caster level) and succeeded.  The fighter would NEVER make his save for the rest of the battle.  The sorcerer and fighter were getting eaten by swarms of rats, the ranger made his save at the end of his turn.Next turn the oblex moved up and used Color Spray on the ranger/fighter which was a waste of a turn as it only blinded the already held fighter.  The ranger lept across to save the fighter from being eaten alive by swarming rats by grabbing him and pulling him away from the oblex in the filth channel.  The rats moved forward to add into the pile already eating the sorcerer and they continued to do damage to her. (I was rolling hot!).The following round was the end of it.  The oblex moved forward and KOed the ranger into the sewer filth.  The Held fighter couldn't make his save and died drowning in sewer filth as the ranger dropped him when passing out.  The sorcerer died to a rat swarm (I don't think I missed an attack roll with them the entire time to hit her).***************************************Why it was a TPK1. In a previous battle the party had fought 3 gray oozes and was down some HP.  I allowed the "missing" bard to pop in and cast a bunch of healing spells to help out but they started the battle all down a little bit.2. When the oblex and rat swarms showed up they offered to let the fighter and sorcerer go if the ranger stayed behind and "joined them".  Rather than agreeing and sacrificing their character OR agreeing but only to make a run for it the party decided to make a "last stand" in the sewer instead.3. The biggest advantage the party had vs. the oblex was its slow speed.  They didn't use their speed to gain distance on the oblex or keep pace with the rats, they just held the line as everything washed over them.4. The fighter didn't get to do much if anything during the entire battle because he was waiting for the swarms to arrive and was held as soon as they showed up.  He maybe got one attack the entire time and died with almost full HP.  This was ultimately the primary reason for their demise.5.  It was, by calculator, a deadly encounter for a 4 person party as the monsters were written.  It would have been super deadly for a 3 person party but with my tweaks and the free bard healing from earlier encounters I tried to bring it back down to doable deadly for 3.  I didn't expect the fighter to be so vulnerable to the Hold Person (He needed to roll a 16+ to save) nor did I expect the rats to do more than get in the way of movement (they only have a +2 to Hit).</blockquote>

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