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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7938777" data-attributes="member: 6801228">All of these points have been discussed in this thread, and I think this post harkens back to an earlier discussion that we had. "Deadly" does not equal "Challenging". There are some really good examples of some counter-points to be found in video games actually. For example, to your 4th point, most video game characters have infinite lives because of save points. You can die again and again and again and again and again, with no real penalty. However, people do not cite that as a reason the game is not difficult. Killing PCs is easy. It always has been, and it doesn't really make the game more challenging because the player simply rolls up another character. Plus, TPKs generally ruin plans, most DMs I've talked to do not want a TPK because it means an end to the campaign as it exists. And we work hard enough to start a campaign and keep it afloat, we don't need to be knocking holes in the boat while we are at it.I also feel like you might be creating your own problems. The idea that all classes have access to a magical attack by 4th level makes me wonder if you are handing out magical items far too much.  Besides that, spellcasters obviously have magical attacks starting at 1st level, so I find your choice of level to lend itself to this idea (6th level is when most options activate, and that is generally only the moon druid and the monk, no one else). They tend to be relatively rare in my games. So, it is very possible that the fighter is hitting with a non-magical weapon for close to half my campaign. But, on to magic. Yes, there is a lot of magic in 5e. Every class can have access to it. To a degree, this removes the supremacy of casters. IF you have 20 goblins for a fighter to kill, you are going to struggle. IF you have the same goblins fighting a wizard, the first question is whether they are in fireball formation. It is a fundamental gap, especially since almost all buffs, debuffs, and AOE's are magical. But, these are merely options. Yes, someone can choose to play an Eldritch Knight and take magic initiate, but they may not take that option. Giving players more tools does not necessarily make the game less challenging, it simply means you can use more complex and difficult challenges. For example, if everyone has magic in 5e... then so do the antagonists. That opens options. Also, petrification does not go away on a long rest. IF you are petrified, that needs to be cured. Sure, other things do, but again, I don't see that as a bad thing. In fact, I think you hit the nail entirely on the head with one of your comments.There is little consideration beyond the adventuring day5e does not ask the DM or the player to track things for months at a time. The game is concerned about the single adventuring day that you are playing through. Because of this, you can actually throw more difficult and interesting fights at the players. You can dominate a player with a high level caster opponent, and not have to worry about the fact that you just removed that character from the game for multiple weeks. What we care about is the single day and the resources you expend. And, there are explicit ways (and homebrew ways) to take the threat beyond that, by denying the players a long rest. Some of the nastiest long-term enemies are those like Hags which can prevent your long rest. That means you don't recover any of those debuffs, any of your spells, nothing. The game is just as challenging as it has ever been, and in a lot of ways, it is more challenging. There is no PC build that is immune to monster attacks. None. Even the highest ACs I have ever seen can still be hit by mid-level monsters if they get lucky. You cannot stack buffs that make you immune to monsters or that allow you to alpha strike monsters. The game is not determined by who wins initiative in every fight. It can be, it is perfectly possible for the PCs to set an ambush and annihilate an encounter, or for the enemy to do the same, but it requires much more effort than it used to. And still relies on luck and whether or not the other side can counter your abilities</blockquote>

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