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Is 5e the Least-Challenging Edition of D&D?
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7940558" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Very true, traps can do that. </p><p></p><p>Less likely where the trap leads to instant death like was being described earlier, such as poisons where a single failed save kills your character. In that case, you can provide your clues and hints, but players will still take extreme caution, because a single missed clue ends their character.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Which is exactly why I brought it up as an example of "Deadly =/= Challenging" </p><p></p><p>The Tomb is incredibly deadly, possibly the most deadly dungeon ever designed, but it isn't challenging in the way that people want things to be challenging. And once you know all the tricks, it may still be deadly, but it is no longer challenging. </p><p></p><p>Deadly does not equal Challenging.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But, that is the point. Many of the things being touted as bringing the challenge back to the game are lethal, but you can't learn from them. You can't learn anything from a wraith sapping your Con or a Shadow sapping your Strength until your fighter is useless. What is there to learn? Don't fight wraiths? Great, but fighting monsters is deadly anyway. Have the low con people fight it? That just kills them. There isn't anything to learn, you just have to suffer through and try not to die while you're character is spending weeks or months recovering their abilities.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'll have to take your word for it, but I find it odd that one of the most famous ambush predators in the world, who lays traps for its prey, was always out in the open where the players could easily see it and decide if they wanted to fight it or not. </p><p></p><p>But, if no monster was ever hidden, snuck up on the characters, or set traps for them to fall into, then I can see why the increased deadliness of the monsters was necessary.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No one said they did, "Deadly does not equal Challenging" and "Character death doesn't mean you have something to learn" Those are points I've been making and while this is an extreme example, it also highlights the point. Death itself doesn't challenge or tell the players anything</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, pixeling. Just have a large piece of paper and read off every part of the door and how you check it for the trap. And, the DM will never call for a roll while you do so?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Three things.</p><p></p><p>1) I find it fascinating that in a game where you expect the players to try every trick in the book and follow a "combat is war" mentality, that something as simple as poisoning your weapons when you are cowardly and weak monsters, is going to come across as completely unfair. </p><p></p><p>2) One thing that may be skewing my understanding of the game is this lack of surprise. In 5e it is completely possible that the Goblins will all get an entire round, maybe two, of firing before the players get their first action, but you keep mentioning the "Statisitcal improbability" of that happening in B/X. If surprise was never really a thing, that might explain why 5e abilities are weaker, because you can actually surprise the party in combat instead of then instantly reacting to the appearance of ambushes. </p><p></p><p>3) Of course I am fabricating situations. We aren't actually playing a game here, I can't point to the chat log of what happened to your character. And I'm trying to prove the point that character death by itself is not challenging nor does it teach the player any lessons at all. So, an example where I say "The goblins ambush, but the fighter succeeds his reaction roll and slaughters all of them" doesn't exactly say anything about character death. So, I need to give examples where the character dies and doesn't learn anything or is challenged for me to even have a point, and I have done so, and all you have been able to say in response is "well, because of the dice, this isn't likely to happen" which doesn't disprove my point at all.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Maybe in older editions, but that isn't the end all and be all of 5e. </p><p></p><p>For example on scouting ahead, I sneak up the dim hallway, sticking to the walls and peer around the corner. </p><p></p><p>Was I stealthy? Did the enemy around the corner see me? </p><p></p><p>I can describe them not seeing me, I can describe the perfect sneak, but if I'm just describing why I should succeed, then scouting isn't dangerous because nothing can go wrong. No monster can be hidden on the ceiling, because I will always add "I check the ceiling for monsters" to the end of every statement. </p><p></p><p>I can describe success to you, but does that mean I automatically succeed?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, the example you quoted was yet again me making the point that "Deadly does not equal challenging" </p><p></p><p>A coin flip dungeon is deadly. It is not challenging. </p><p></p><p>And, you are making the assumption that my players, despite not being old skool, do not interact with the environment, do not think about their actions, do not make meaningdul choices that have a direct impact on their success and failure. </p><p></p><p>They can do all of that. While Wraith's only drain max hp for the day, poison isn't an instant kill, ect. </p><p></p><p>Because, if after twenty minutes of deciding to check the tomb they were sent to raid in every possible manner, and they open it and still die to something or other, their choice wasn't meaningful. They check it, just not in the correct way, and they all died. But they had to open the tomb either way, because the only other choice was to turn around and count the entire dive as a lost cause. </p><p></p><p>Meaningful choices don't automatically appear just because the result might be death.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The poster said that the light cantrip makes torches unnecessary. </p><p></p><p>A cleric gets three cantrips, five ever, and so using one of those slots for light is a significant choice. And, since torches only cost 1 copper a piece, and plenty of casters have a free hand, it is equally valid to say that Torches make the Light Cantrip unnecessary. A single gold buys a hundred torches after all. </p><p></p><p>They said Goodberry makes rations unnecessary. However, Goodberry is a 1st level spell, and a spell not many classes have access to. It is equally valid to say that five silver a ration makes Goodberry unnecessary, because a few gold buys you plenty of rations and you do not need to use your spell slot. </p><p></p><p>Or, take the Outlander background, and that gives you plenty of food without needing rations or goodberry</p><p></p><p>Or just make a survival check to forage for food (or describe yourself hunting and setting snares if you want) and you can usually easily find enough food to last you without needing rations or goodberries. </p><p></p><p>The ubiquity of magic hasn't removed these items, and the cheapness of those items (or ease of countering the same problem) could be easily seen as making those spells sub-par choices anyways.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 7940558, member: 6801228"] Very true, traps can do that. Less likely where the trap leads to instant death like was being described earlier, such as poisons where a single failed save kills your character. In that case, you can provide your clues and hints, but players will still take extreme caution, because a single missed clue ends their character. Which is exactly why I brought it up as an example of "Deadly =/= Challenging" The Tomb is incredibly deadly, possibly the most deadly dungeon ever designed, but it isn't challenging in the way that people want things to be challenging. And once you know all the tricks, it may still be deadly, but it is no longer challenging. Deadly does not equal Challenging. But, that is the point. Many of the things being touted as bringing the challenge back to the game are lethal, but you can't learn from them. You can't learn anything from a wraith sapping your Con or a Shadow sapping your Strength until your fighter is useless. What is there to learn? Don't fight wraiths? Great, but fighting monsters is deadly anyway. Have the low con people fight it? That just kills them. There isn't anything to learn, you just have to suffer through and try not to die while you're character is spending weeks or months recovering their abilities. I'll have to take your word for it, but I find it odd that one of the most famous ambush predators in the world, who lays traps for its prey, was always out in the open where the players could easily see it and decide if they wanted to fight it or not. But, if no monster was ever hidden, snuck up on the characters, or set traps for them to fall into, then I can see why the increased deadliness of the monsters was necessary. No one said they did, "Deadly does not equal Challenging" and "Character death doesn't mean you have something to learn" Those are points I've been making and while this is an extreme example, it also highlights the point. Death itself doesn't challenge or tell the players anything So, pixeling. Just have a large piece of paper and read off every part of the door and how you check it for the trap. And, the DM will never call for a roll while you do so? Three things. 1) I find it fascinating that in a game where you expect the players to try every trick in the book and follow a "combat is war" mentality, that something as simple as poisoning your weapons when you are cowardly and weak monsters, is going to come across as completely unfair. 2) One thing that may be skewing my understanding of the game is this lack of surprise. In 5e it is completely possible that the Goblins will all get an entire round, maybe two, of firing before the players get their first action, but you keep mentioning the "Statisitcal improbability" of that happening in B/X. If surprise was never really a thing, that might explain why 5e abilities are weaker, because you can actually surprise the party in combat instead of then instantly reacting to the appearance of ambushes. 3) Of course I am fabricating situations. We aren't actually playing a game here, I can't point to the chat log of what happened to your character. And I'm trying to prove the point that character death by itself is not challenging nor does it teach the player any lessons at all. So, an example where I say "The goblins ambush, but the fighter succeeds his reaction roll and slaughters all of them" doesn't exactly say anything about character death. So, I need to give examples where the character dies and doesn't learn anything or is challenged for me to even have a point, and I have done so, and all you have been able to say in response is "well, because of the dice, this isn't likely to happen" which doesn't disprove my point at all. Maybe in older editions, but that isn't the end all and be all of 5e. For example on scouting ahead, I sneak up the dim hallway, sticking to the walls and peer around the corner. Was I stealthy? Did the enemy around the corner see me? I can describe them not seeing me, I can describe the perfect sneak, but if I'm just describing why I should succeed, then scouting isn't dangerous because nothing can go wrong. No monster can be hidden on the ceiling, because I will always add "I check the ceiling for monsters" to the end of every statement. I can describe success to you, but does that mean I automatically succeed? No, the example you quoted was yet again me making the point that "Deadly does not equal challenging" A coin flip dungeon is deadly. It is not challenging. And, you are making the assumption that my players, despite not being old skool, do not interact with the environment, do not think about their actions, do not make meaningdul choices that have a direct impact on their success and failure. They can do all of that. While Wraith's only drain max hp for the day, poison isn't an instant kill, ect. Because, if after twenty minutes of deciding to check the tomb they were sent to raid in every possible manner, and they open it and still die to something or other, their choice wasn't meaningful. They check it, just not in the correct way, and they all died. But they had to open the tomb either way, because the only other choice was to turn around and count the entire dive as a lost cause. Meaningful choices don't automatically appear just because the result might be death. The poster said that the light cantrip makes torches unnecessary. A cleric gets three cantrips, five ever, and so using one of those slots for light is a significant choice. And, since torches only cost 1 copper a piece, and plenty of casters have a free hand, it is equally valid to say that Torches make the Light Cantrip unnecessary. A single gold buys a hundred torches after all. They said Goodberry makes rations unnecessary. However, Goodberry is a 1st level spell, and a spell not many classes have access to. It is equally valid to say that five silver a ration makes Goodberry unnecessary, because a few gold buys you plenty of rations and you do not need to use your spell slot. Or, take the Outlander background, and that gives you plenty of food without needing rations or goodberry Or just make a survival check to forage for food (or describe yourself hunting and setting snares if you want) and you can usually easily find enough food to last you without needing rations or goodberries. The ubiquity of magic hasn't removed these items, and the cheapness of those items (or ease of countering the same problem) could be easily seen as making those spells sub-par choices anyways. [/QUOTE]
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