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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Monayuris" data-source="post: 7941640" data-attributes="member: 6859536">I do agree about gotcha traps. I don't use them. If I have a trap in my dungeon, it will be something that players will need to actually deal with.I want the caution and consideration, the problem solving, the discussion. I want the challenge of figuring out a trap and getting past it. The stakes being getting killed adds to the tension and challenge. Again, when talking about deadly equaling challenging, Tomb of Horrors is an extreme case. What people? You are making a broad assumption.Different people have different ideas of what is challenging. Personally, I think Tomb of Horrors is challenging because I really have to think and figure out the traps and puzzles it presents. It requires me to carefully approach and experiment and engage with environment instead of just using a prepackaged solution (skill check, spell, class ability, etc).It is fair that you don't consider deadly to be challenging. But there are others who do and, in my case, I have explained why.Of course players can learn from them. Each player's experience with every monster gives new insight in how to approach them in the future. Imagine the first time a player ever fights a troll. When they figure out that they need fire, they learn to use fire against trolls the next time they encounter them.With concern to the wraith. Of course you learn something, here are some examples:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">They can drain Con or even levels. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Yes, sometimes it is best to avoid them. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">They can hire a high level cleric. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">They can bring a form of radiant damage, or bring lots of holy water. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">They can scout the dungeon and find another way around them. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">They can distract the wraith while another player goes and grabs its loot. </li> </ul>There myriad things that can be learned in that situation and myriad approaches that can be taken to overcome such a challenge.The wraith is an example of a monster that presents an obstacle that cannot be easily or effectively dealt with by using normal, rules-based, approaches (combat) and where the consequence in doing so is deadly or debilitating (not easily overcome or shrugged off). The challenge is in figuring out an alternative approach.In 5E, by contrast, the wraith can still be dealt with through normal means. Between still taking half damage to the ubiquity of spells removing the danger of its resistance it can be approached the same as any other threat.  It doesn't present a challenge in overcoming it. If a DM wanted to take an extremely deadly creature and have them attack with surprise against their players, they are free to do so. My point is that they would have to accept that by doing so, they are probably going to kill their characters. But this is a DM decision. I can do the same thing in 5E or any other edition. I can decide to have Banshee's or Archmages with Fireball surprise and kill my player's characters as well. My comment was in response to your ridiculous scenario of having a party of player characters all die by DM fiat because they failed a roll while camped. This doesn't happen in even the most deadliest of games. But there still things to learn:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Next time you camp in that dangerous location, you can set up tripwires tied to metal objects to make an alarm</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">They can use a spell like alarm to warn you of these dangers</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bring extra mercenaries and double up on watches so you are less likely to be ambushed.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Find a better camp site with more defensible terrain. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sleep up in the trees or make a hammock</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Travel at night and camp at day.</li> </ul>Not pixeling, interacting with the environment. How do characters interact with traps and puzzles in your game? How do you run a poison needle trap on a door lock? Pixeling is a term from those old King's Quest style games where one had to do a random thing to a random location. Checking the door knob for a poison needle or looking for pressure plates in front of the door is not pixeling. These are things that are logical and intuitive to the environment.You seem to be mischaracterizing "combat as war" as an antagonist relationship between the DM and the Players. The responsibility of the DM in a "combat as war" style game is not to devise ways to auto kill the PCs, its to present an environment that allows players to use "combat as war" tactics in a meaningful way. Some of the ways to do this is to provide usable information, run monsters in a way that provides players meaningful choices, provide consequences that are understandable and expected.The best description and explanation I can refer to is this video:    <a href="https://youtu.be/qnKc64ADYf8" target="_blank">Running Combat as War</a>I never said there is lack of surprise in B/X. I just said that there is a chance of surprise (your example assumes that surprise is automatic).In B/X, surprise is rolled on a d6. On a 1 or 2 (some monsters or player classes have different odds), the side surprise their opponent. Surprise is rolled for both sides (although in dungeons, torch light usually removes the possibility of the party getting surprise). Of course, a DM can, by fiat, give surprise to the monsters (or players for that matter) if the situation warrants it. But in a typical encounter where parameters haven't been described, that is base the rule. In 5E, the DM would roll the monster's stealth vs. the player's perception to determine surprise. This is the mechanic in B/X that performs that same function.When the rules for surprise are used, in B/X,  poisonous spiders surprising and killing everyone becomes less likely. Your example assumed that surprise was achieved, the spider hit with its attack, and the player failed it's save. You are making the claim that death is arbitrary and doesn't provide any lessons to learn and you are supporting that claim by stating the possibility that a very unlikely event can happen.An analog of your claim, in 5E,  would be a surprise from a multiattack creature that crits on all its attacks and kills a PC automatically. It is unlikely but possible. My question to you: what do you want/expect a player to learn as a result of an ambush? My thoughts are that there are tons of things to learn and ways to approach such a situation. Some of my examples:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Travel more spread out so PCs can flank or spot ambushes on the flank.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bring war dogs or such that have a good sense of smell and can alert the party to danger</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Have a character scout ahead so the party doesn't all get ambushed.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Approach the ambush site from a different direction and attempt to ambush them instead</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Use spells to hide party number or obscure their location</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Use a decoy to draw out ambushes and counter with their own ambush</li> </ul>All of these things can be done to mitigate getting killed by goblin ambushes. The challenge is in that one can't just wander carelessly and expect to survive an ambush. One has to consider options and tactics that will improve one's chances to survive.Scouting isn't something you just state you succeed at. But the act of scouting is going to provide a more favorable possible outcome. This is contextual. What are you doing to scout? What is the environment like? What aspects of the environment can you use to shield your location or obscure your approach. How you role-play will determine whether you succeed or feel. These are considerations that directly affect your outcome to scouting. My response was an argument on how to eliminate the coin flip dungeon. A coin flip dungeon occurs when die rolls and mechanics, only, determine success or failure. Exploration relying solely on Perception checks, Investigation checks and other skill checks or skill challenges, results in a coin flip dungeon experience. The hope is to just roll high.Torches have weight. Only so many can be carried.. They also can be extinguished by wind or disarmed or lost. Rations, same with Goodberry. There are choices on how many torches and how many rations to carry. This may prevent  from equipping certain other useful equipment, it may also prevent from being able to carry the treasure you discover.Outlander basically eliminates a lot of challenge from wilderness travel. I house rule that out.Foraging is a good choice for adventuring in the wilderness. The consequence to foraging is that it prevents Passive Perception from being used to keep watch for encounters.The use of rations, torches, foraging, are all choices that have consequences in the game. Managing them is a part of the challenge.</blockquote>

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