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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8305343" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Myself and several others on here (and elsewhere) spent a huge amount of time during that era trying to convince/teach people to (a) view 4e through an indie design lens (thereby undoing some of the really bad marketing ploys/gaffes of 4e - eg &quot;ze game remains ze same&quot; - no it doesn't - and &quot;skip the gate guards and get to the fun&quot;...how about the less incendiary &quot;cut to the action&quot; or Dogs less flammable &quot;at every moment, drive play toward conflict&quot; instead?) and (b) embrace the GMing Techniques and Principles and Player Best Practices that undergird such play.But the collective cacophony and resolve by a select group of edition warriors to wage a scorched earth campaign on the game (and WotC at that moment in time) was just_far_too much.I would LOVE to behold an alternative universe where (i) the game was released in, say, 2018, (particularly after the Blades in the Dark, PBtA love-fest) and (ii) the game was released without the utterly unhelpful stuff I listed above (no...the game is not the same and cut to the action and Skill Challenges should be informed by Fail Forward, Success w/ Complications, and every moment of action resolution should dynamically Change the Situation).&nbsp; Edition Warriors would still besiege places with a frantic, pearl-clutching, obfuscating hatred...but now there is so much more widespread understanding of, and love for, indie games and the type of design and play that 4e represented.Would be interesting.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 8305343, member: 6696971"] Myself and several others on here (and elsewhere) spent a huge amount of time during that era trying to convince/teach people to (a) view 4e through an indie design lens (thereby undoing some of the really bad marketing ploys/gaffes of 4e - eg "ze game remains ze same" - no it doesn't - and "skip the gate guards and get to the fun"...how about the less incendiary "cut to the action" or Dogs less flammable "at every moment, drive play toward conflict" instead?) and (b) embrace the GMing Techniques and Principles and Player Best Practices that undergird such play. But the collective cacophony and resolve by a select group of edition warriors to wage a scorched earth campaign on the game (and WotC at that moment in time) was just_far_too much. I would LOVE to behold an alternative universe where (i) the game was released in, say, 2018, (particularly after the Blades in the Dark, PBtA love-fest) and (ii) the game was released without the utterly unhelpful stuff I listed above ([I]no...the game is not the same[/I] and [I]cut to the action [/I]and Skill Challenges should be informed by [I]Fail Forward, Success w/ Complications[/I], and every moment of action resolution should dynamically [I]Change the Situation)[/I]. Edition Warriors would still besiege places with a frantic, pearl-clutching, obfuscating hatred...but now there is so much more widespread understanding of, and love for, indie games and the type of design and play that 4e represented. Would be interesting. [/QUOTE]

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