Is a moving ship a destination or an object?

[Ambrus]

Some people may recognize where this question is coming from. My players are considering trying to teleport to a moving merchant ship whose current location eludes them. They've also been considering using find the path to track it down. Now I'm stuck trying to figure out if either idea would work. Can the deck of a ship be a viable destination for teleportation by itself if it keeps moving through unfamilar areas? Usually it's possible to teleport into a building, but what if that "building" is mobile? Would find the path work on a moving ship? Is the ship a destination or an object? I want to be fair to my players but I don't want to ignore the rules either. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

 

[MerakSpielman]

I'd rule that a specific location on the ship (i.e., a particular cabin) would count as a location, whereas the ship itself, as a whole entity, would count as an object.

 

[Starspawn]

I, on the other hand, would rule, that the players have to know the accurate position (through scrying or calculations) of the ship. If they miscalculate they'll get a little wet

 

[Khayman]

Hmm. Teleport might benefit from a new metamagic feat: Heisenberg Compensation.

Problem is, the ship is both an object and a destination. An object in space becomes a destination if you can fix its position --- I think Starspawn had the right idea when it comes down to scrying or direct observation. Of course, the familiarity of the location depends on the nature of observation used.

 

[KarinsDad]

"You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination."

The Teleport spell (v3.5) works by focusing on a known destination, but specifically points out that you must also have a clear idea of the location.

The PCs know the layout of the destination (e.g. the cabin of the ship).

The PCs do not know the location (e.g. where in the world the ship is located).

So, the answer is that they must use some form of magic (possibly Scrying) to find the location of the ship.

"Find the Path" will not work to accomplish this because it comes up with the route and direction, not the actual location. Just because you know a given location is north of you does not mean that you know where it is.

 

[Clueless]

And let's not even get into the idea of relative frames.... Since the ship if only considered within itself is not moving, but if considered in the context of a world is, but then so is that world in the context of the galaxy and so on and so forth. At some point magic spells targeting a location just throw their hands up in the air and go "That's it! I don't care anymore!" I'm inclinded to think the magic focuses on the visual appearance of a 'place' at a 'time' and tries to match it closely, allowing for a fuzzy factor of people coming and going and changes in season... After all, on mischance it *does* take you to a simular location. If they can scry it, they should be able to find it.

Find the path would find the object, after all - a ship is a *thing*. You can touch it, so it *is* material. And it won't accuse you of touching it in bad places - so it's not alive. Find the path will definately work - but find the path if I recall tells you location by *names* so that may be useful but not entirely useful. "It's in the Mediterrean. Somewhere." You may want to determine if the ship is just at open sea or in any particular known stretch of sea. Also I believe you have to have previously touched the object before.

EDIT: The info on find the path above probably refers to Discern Location. I don't have a book at hand to check with.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Another fun question is if you're in a fast ship moving with a stiff breeze at 60' per round, and you're below decks and cast Fly, what happens?

Don't bother thinking about it. None of the rationalles for this situation really make any sense anyway.

 

[Ambrus]

Find the path would find the object, after all - a ship is a *thing*.

But find the path doesn't point the way to an object, only destinations. See below:

The recipient of this spell can find the shortest, most direct physical route to a specified destination, be it the way into or out of a locale. The locale can be outdoors, underground, or even inside a maze spell. Find the path works with respect to locations, not objects or creatures at a locale. SRD

So btw RAW, you can only teleport to a moving vehicle if you also know it's exact location at the time of casting (in relation to the nearest planet)? Is that right?

 

[MerakSpielman]

But what does it mean to know the exact location? Do they use longitude and latitude in your campaign?

Scrying works to teleport to a location - but how? If you scry an enemy, and see him in a paticular room, you can teleport to that room without having any idea where the room itself is located.

You know before casting teleport that the ship is in the middle of the ocean. Yet, by the RAW, scrying it first should help, even though most open ocean looks pretty much like any other. Why is this?

 

[KarinsDad]

But what does it mean to know the exact location? Do they use longitude and latitude in your campaign?

Scrying works to teleport to a location - but how? If you scry an enemy, and see him in a paticular room, you can teleport to that room without having any idea where the room itself is located.

You know before casting teleport that the ship is in the middle of the ocean. Yet, by the RAW, scrying it first should help, even though most open ocean looks pretty much like any other. Why is this?

You are attempting to ask the question "How does the magic work?".

The answer to this question is irrelevant.

The real question you should be asking is "What happens under xyz circumstances?".

The Teleport spell states:

"This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination"

and

"You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination."

and

"“Studied carefully” is a place you know well, either because you can currently see it, you’ve been there often, or you have used other means (such as scrying) to study the place for at least one hour."


This means that you must know the layout of where you are going. Plus, you must basically know the location of where you are going.

Both of these elements are required as per the Teleport spell. How you gain the information on layout and location and how the Teleport spell uses that information is basically irrelevant.

What is relevant is that you must have these two pieces of information. Now typically, Scrying does not give you location information, just creature and surrounding area (10 feet radius) information (i.e. layout information). However, the Teleport spell explicitly states that Scrying can be used, hence, this is an exception to how Teleport normally works. The information gained by the Scrying is sufficient enough for the location information required by Teleport.


Now, for a non-moving destination where you have been there before, you already know location and you probably have a good idea of layout (unless it has drastically changed).