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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4371944" data-attributes="member: 4937">Did the fact that I anticipated you would say that not in the slightest cause you to think I'd thought about that already?Did the fact that I listed a whole bunch of other game systems I'd played not in the slightest cause you to think otherwise?So sanity points ('Call of Cthullu'), darkside points, and willpower points ('WoD') are less functional in the context of controlling player behavior than the alignment system, which in recent systems offers zero penalty to most character concepts if they freely change it?&nbsp; If the alignment system is so comprehensive and so ubiquitous, how is it that you can claim that the game doesn't suffer if you abandon it?&nbsp;&nbsp; Would you make the same claim with regard to any of the other systems I listed?&nbsp;&nbsp; Are you seriously going to advance the claim that 'Call of Cthullu' doesn't suffer if you abandon the SAN system, that the SAN system is less ubiquitous and less tightly integrated into the game than alignment, and that SAN points provided a less functional and powerful tool for controlling player behavior than alignment?&nbsp; Really?&nbsp; Pull the other one.Oh please.&nbsp; Enough with the ad hominem.&nbsp; I could just as easily claim that you've had a rash of spectacularly bad players and that your standards are so low you just don't notice it.&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm just noting that in my experience (and I've been pretty careful to call it my experience), no alignment - no character contract to be more precise - in a game system ends up with most everyone playing 'shades of grey' characters - regardless of the rationalization involved.I certainly make no claims that extremely good RPers can't form character contracts without in game support, or that good RPers can't hold to a character contract without in game support.&nbsp;&nbsp; Perhaps the easiest explanation for my experience though, is that none of the best RPers I have ever played with ever had a problem with social contract mechanics and never bemoaned thier ability to create interesting characters with them, whereas alot of the ones I held in less esteem did.&nbsp; Maybe you've had a different experience.&nbsp; I'd be interested to no what 'complete jerkwads' means, and what its opposite would be.&nbsp;&nbsp; I really have no ability to evaluate what happens at the tables you play at.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 4371944, member: 4937"] Did the fact that I anticipated you would say that not in the slightest cause you to think I'd thought about that already? Did the fact that I listed a whole bunch of other game systems I'd played not in the slightest cause you to think otherwise? So sanity points ('Call of Cthullu'), darkside points, and willpower points ('WoD') are less functional in the context of controlling player behavior than the alignment system, which in recent systems offers zero penalty to most character concepts if they freely change it? If the alignment system is so comprehensive and so ubiquitous, how is it that you can claim that the game doesn't suffer if you abandon it? Would you make the same claim with regard to any of the other systems I listed? Are you seriously going to advance the claim that 'Call of Cthullu' doesn't suffer if you abandon the SAN system, that the SAN system is less ubiquitous and less tightly integrated into the game than alignment, and that SAN points provided a less functional and powerful tool for controlling player behavior than alignment? Really? Pull the other one. Oh please. Enough with the ad hominem. I could just as easily claim that you've had a rash of spectacularly bad players and that your standards are so low you just don't notice it. I'm just noting that in my experience (and I've been pretty careful to call it my experience), no alignment - no character contract to be more precise - in a game system ends up with most everyone playing 'shades of grey' characters - regardless of the rationalization involved. I certainly make no claims that extremely good RPers can't form character contracts without in game support, or that good RPers can't hold to a character contract without in game support. Perhaps the easiest explanation for my experience though, is that none of the best RPers I have ever played with ever had a problem with social contract mechanics and never bemoaned thier ability to create interesting characters with them, whereas alot of the ones I held in less esteem did. Maybe you've had a different experience. I'd be interested to no what 'complete jerkwads' means, and what its opposite would be. I really have no ability to evaluate what happens at the tables you play at. [/QUOTE]

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