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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sword of Spirit" data-source="post: 6315377" data-attributes="member: 6677017">On the paladins vs. clerics identity, there exists a really simple way of dealing with it, although a lot of people don't choose to use it (and shouldn't be forced to): Clerics are priests; paladins are (holy) knights. That's it.If you define cleric=priest and priest=cleric, you're done. Problem solved. That's about how I do it in my game. All priests are either clerics or druids. Sure, there are lesser orders of clergy (and paladins could be said to belong to them) which non-clerics can belong to, but that's not the general rule.I'm actually a fun of the way 4e did it, that once you got your divine powers you had them, and you weren't directly dependent on a deity for them anymore. So, for instance, your deity can't really just deny you your daily spells. He can send a celestial servant to lecture (or punish) you if you've really ticked him off and want to keep representing him. This also allows for various degrees of involvement of deities. Some can be distant, some can be watchful. However, I do like some sort of non-punitive (IMO) mechanical consequences where appropriate.Restricting a fallen cleric's ability to advance levels in his class unless he changes to another deity is one method of dealing with such situations. Another way is to simply say his powers are now coming from another deity, which might mean his domain changes (if strictly necessary). If the DM uses this sort of technique, he needs to provide in-world warning to the character that his deity is displeased with his actions, or out of character explanation that if you aren't following your deity's tenets, your powers might start coming from another source when you level up and your domain might be switched.In the case of a paladin, I would definitely take the angle above. If a paladin falls from his ideals far enough, his subclass changes to an oath more appropriate to his current behavior. I'd work with the player to decide how he'd like this represented in game. He might want it to be chosen by the paladin (and a new oath formally sworn) or he might want it to happen "by accident" with the character not even realizing it until his powers start to change.In either case, I'd let the group know up front that this stuff happens. Pick an oath or a deity/domain that fits your character, because they are more than just a package of cool powers. If your actions change too far from your subclass, you'll get a different set of cool powers. I don't consider it punitive to simply change their powers to fit their role-playing. It's just not my game style to make mechanics completely separate from fluff, and as long as the players understand that at the get go, and have some understanding of what the tenets are of the different subclasses or deities, it seems childish for them to complain unless I'm being a real jerk about my interpretations and not foreshadowing an potential change.Not exactly. A cause or principle need not have overt rules. "Love conquers all," "everyone is born free" and or even "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" are chaotic-ish causes and principles that lack a defined set of rules for how to go about pursuing them.This is a pretty well-reasoned response. I think the sort of possibilities I mentioned earlier do a pretty good job of taking an inclusive approach. 1. Here's what it means to be devoted to this deity, or domain, or paladin oath.2. If you fall from that devotion, your subclass will switch to represent one that best fits your new behavior.3. You won't lose overall power, you'll simple gain a different set of powers associated with your new character concept.4. We'll work together to determine how this is reflected in the game world.It basically tells a player that they have to play a character within certain boundaries or goals if they want the powers associated with those goals, but if they change their mind they can switch to another set of powers and goals.</blockquote>

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