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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DDNFan" data-source="post: 6316028" data-attributes="member: 6776483">Whatever the solution is to a paladin acting poorly, it can't be "do nothing".If the paladin is off on his own, and goes to loot the tomb of the fallen king for his magic armor or sword, and he comes back to his group and says it was handed to him by his God, who is to deny him? Since the god is an absentee landlord in the model of "you're only punishable if you get caught", presupposes very weak D&D gods, and that I find unbelievable. A weak, impotent, blind god with strong champions who are abusing his good will and there's nothing he can do about it (in the rules). Yeah, I've seen that happen lots over the years. The only reason I've seen people complain about having to atone are specifically those problem paladin players who want to literally get away with murder and thievery.I don't think it's interesting playing a game where my god permits me to lay on hands and detect evil creatures, while still giving me enough leeway, that, so long as I'm not witnessed by anyone, can murder a prisoner in cold blood, or eat the last piece of bread of a dying old man.Sounds like the kind of knights in Game of Thrones, secular ones, and servants of all-too-human kings and queens. Knights who pretend to pray, while being sinners.If a paladin's god not only can't take away his powers, but can't even order his other followers to hunt down and kill him and bring him to justice, we do have to laugh at such meager gods, and scratch our heads at why anyone would pledge their lives to be their champions.I agree with imaro, the class doesn't make sense without gods having at least some control over their followers. The only thing we're even debating now is why we would want DMs to have in the DMG an optional rule to have classic paladins. But those of us who want them, are not going to stop wanting them because some people we've never met, nor will ever play with.We've heard the arguments for years and years. To my mind, they are all variants of "let the players do whatever they want, because otherwise they will whine". I've never seen, not once, a paladin player who actually played the class well, I mean roleplay wise, even risk having to atone, unless it was deliberately because they were stuck, or it was part of their character. In that case, being a fallen paladin adds character to the character, and makes the overall story better, not worse.Living in a world where there are paladins but they are all perfect specimens and therefore there are never any fallen paladins, tells me the gods are asleep at the wheel, and perhaps aren't even real. Certainly not gods of justice and decency, when they are so inept and powerless to even censure their own champions who are committing evil acts and never getting caught let alone stopped.</blockquote>

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