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Is Anyone Unhappy About Non-LG Paladins?
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<blockquote data-quote="Elf Witch" data-source="post: 6317525" data-attributes="member: 9037"><p>Permerton the DM had his goddess send him a vision that he was on the wrong track I think when your goddess chose to tell you something you if you are a paladin should listen. It is a tool in the DM tool kit to help players. I use it to give guidance to a player. This is along of the lines of a DM giving a player an incredulous look and asks are you sure you want to do that and instead of thinking maybe this is a bad idea they go yes. I think the DM handled it in a creative way he didn't take all the abilities away but the ones that fit the situation. </p><p></p><p>As for something being part of the background that is a cool thing to do but it is not in the RAW. I have used it and I would do the same with the player who wants to have it as I would a cleric or a paladin if they violate that gift and stray to far from the deity alignment then there would be consequences. </p><p></p><p>I think the DM should have the power as I have said before they are the final arbitrator of the rules and they run the world and the gods in it. Also my experience is that most players are not exactly unbiased when it comes to making judgement calls that might effect their characters. And yes I acknowledge that their are bad DMs out there who abuse their power but taking power away from all DMs because of this does not make sense. The answer is not play with a DM you don't trust. </p><p></p><p>Ruin Explorer No it is not a metagame issue at all paladins and clerics get detect evil. The way alignment works is if something is always evil it will detect as evil. A baby of a race that does not have the always alignment gets to chose and will detect as neutral. Also there are in games way to help them make the decision. You can have the cleric or paladin pray for guidance you can have someone roll a knowledge skill to se if anyone knows of a case where orc babies didn't grow up to be evil brutes. </p><p></p><p>I think that depends on the players involved. Is it wrong to wipe out evil? Is it wrong to allow evil to flourish and if you do is the innocent blood then on your hands? These are interesting moral dilemma questions that some players like myself and most of the people I play with enjoy. </p><p></p><p>Again any issue can derail a game when a DM and players come to loggerheads over an issue. At that point it is time to step back and remember it is just a game. </p><p></p><p>That is not true at all that only one is good. If the PCs have no way to care for those orc babies and no way to get them to a place where they could be cared for then the only solution for them is do end them in a merciful way. It really depends on what else is going on in the world and what the PCs are up to. If they are evil then I would argue that it would not necessarily be a good thing to allow them to live, breed and then kill innocent people. It certainly is not an evil act to stop evil.</p><p></p><p>Again I disagree it is an excellent moral dilemma for a good party. Especially if the babies are not evil. I have seen it done in several games one was with two kobold babies who did not detect as evil. Half the party wanted to just give them to the human townsfolk who would kill them the other half insisted on taking them with us. We ended up taking them and raising them.One became good the other eventually went more to the typical kobold alignment of the world which is neutral evil. The cleric of St Cuthbert was for not for saving them because he had dealt with kobolds his entire life and never heard of any being raised successfully. </p><p></p><p>These kind of moral dilemmas are just that because there is more than one answer unless of course everything is black and white in your game world. </p><p></p><p>I do think that a black and white world then it is impossible to really run a paladin or any lawful character technically going into ruins that a orc tribes lives in killing them and stealing their stuff is not really a good act. </p><p></p><p>One of the problems with this is how you view the world do you view it through a 21 century moral view or a more historical view. For example looting fallen soldiers in the 21 century view is considered wrong but from a historical view not so much. As a 21 century person I find the entire idea of slavery abhorrent and evil. But from a historical POV I don't believe that societies that had slavery was filled with evil people. </p><p></p><p>We had a alignment argument in a game between myself and another player. I was playing a noble who had been knighted and I played it from the POV of how people were viewed in medieval times. Which was nobles lives were worth more than peasants lives so I chose to save the Kings children even though it meant letting peasant children die. The other player a very modern American was like no that is evil those noble children including the heir are not worth more than the peasant children. </p><p></p><p>You realize that just because no adult you would play with would want to do that does mean that other adults agree and right there is the crux of the issue know the people you game with. If I had a table filled with players like you I would not put in such moral dilemmas because you would not find them enjoyable.</p><p></p><p></p><p>GSHamster The DM didn't make the player fail in turning the dice and maybe the rules did. But I would agree that a paladin standing back allowing the party to take all the risks while he keeps trying something that is not working and has his goddess (the DM) letting him know look your chances are not very good is coming close to violating his oaths.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Elf Witch, post: 6317525, member: 9037"] Permerton the DM had his goddess send him a vision that he was on the wrong track I think when your goddess chose to tell you something you if you are a paladin should listen. It is a tool in the DM tool kit to help players. I use it to give guidance to a player. This is along of the lines of a DM giving a player an incredulous look and asks are you sure you want to do that and instead of thinking maybe this is a bad idea they go yes. I think the DM handled it in a creative way he didn't take all the abilities away but the ones that fit the situation. As for something being part of the background that is a cool thing to do but it is not in the RAW. I have used it and I would do the same with the player who wants to have it as I would a cleric or a paladin if they violate that gift and stray to far from the deity alignment then there would be consequences. I think the DM should have the power as I have said before they are the final arbitrator of the rules and they run the world and the gods in it. Also my experience is that most players are not exactly unbiased when it comes to making judgement calls that might effect their characters. And yes I acknowledge that their are bad DMs out there who abuse their power but taking power away from all DMs because of this does not make sense. The answer is not play with a DM you don't trust. Ruin Explorer No it is not a metagame issue at all paladins and clerics get detect evil. The way alignment works is if something is always evil it will detect as evil. A baby of a race that does not have the always alignment gets to chose and will detect as neutral. Also there are in games way to help them make the decision. You can have the cleric or paladin pray for guidance you can have someone roll a knowledge skill to se if anyone knows of a case where orc babies didn't grow up to be evil brutes. I think that depends on the players involved. Is it wrong to wipe out evil? Is it wrong to allow evil to flourish and if you do is the innocent blood then on your hands? These are interesting moral dilemma questions that some players like myself and most of the people I play with enjoy. Again any issue can derail a game when a DM and players come to loggerheads over an issue. At that point it is time to step back and remember it is just a game. That is not true at all that only one is good. If the PCs have no way to care for those orc babies and no way to get them to a place where they could be cared for then the only solution for them is do end them in a merciful way. It really depends on what else is going on in the world and what the PCs are up to. If they are evil then I would argue that it would not necessarily be a good thing to allow them to live, breed and then kill innocent people. It certainly is not an evil act to stop evil. Again I disagree it is an excellent moral dilemma for a good party. Especially if the babies are not evil. I have seen it done in several games one was with two kobold babies who did not detect as evil. Half the party wanted to just give them to the human townsfolk who would kill them the other half insisted on taking them with us. We ended up taking them and raising them.One became good the other eventually went more to the typical kobold alignment of the world which is neutral evil. The cleric of St Cuthbert was for not for saving them because he had dealt with kobolds his entire life and never heard of any being raised successfully. These kind of moral dilemmas are just that because there is more than one answer unless of course everything is black and white in your game world. I do think that a black and white world then it is impossible to really run a paladin or any lawful character technically going into ruins that a orc tribes lives in killing them and stealing their stuff is not really a good act. One of the problems with this is how you view the world do you view it through a 21 century moral view or a more historical view. For example looting fallen soldiers in the 21 century view is considered wrong but from a historical view not so much. As a 21 century person I find the entire idea of slavery abhorrent and evil. But from a historical POV I don't believe that societies that had slavery was filled with evil people. We had a alignment argument in a game between myself and another player. I was playing a noble who had been knighted and I played it from the POV of how people were viewed in medieval times. Which was nobles lives were worth more than peasants lives so I chose to save the Kings children even though it meant letting peasant children die. The other player a very modern American was like no that is evil those noble children including the heir are not worth more than the peasant children. You realize that just because no adult you would play with would want to do that does mean that other adults agree and right there is the crux of the issue know the people you game with. If I had a table filled with players like you I would not put in such moral dilemmas because you would not find them enjoyable. GSHamster The DM didn't make the player fail in turning the dice and maybe the rules did. But I would agree that a paladin standing back allowing the party to take all the risks while he keeps trying something that is not working and has his goddess (the DM) letting him know look your chances are not very good is coming close to violating his oaths. [/QUOTE]
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