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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Majoru Oakheart" data-source="post: 6317615" data-attributes="member: 5143">Honestly, I can sort of see this.  If he was expressly told by his god that "The Dracolich is too powerful for your turning attempts.  He can resist them easily, your friends will die if you don't defeat the monster another way.  Please due your duty and protect your allies." and he STILL decided to keep going, then sure.  I agree with you.Even if you stepped out of character and as the DM said "Look, your god is going to frown on your attempts to turn the monster when you know for a fact you need a 19 or higher to succeed on a d20.  You are purposefully taking an action that has nearly NO chance to succeed.  Which is kind of jerky to your friends since you're are essentially letting them die.  I'm going to rule that your character knows he has nearly no chance to succeed as well and it is considered a form of cowardice to stand at the back doing nothing to help.  Cowardice will get your powers removed.  Do you still want to do that?"Though, that's not what you were saying before, that's why it confused me.  It sounded like you were saying "His god is a god of Protection and the only way to protect your allies is to stand between you and a monster.  Failure to do that is willfully ignoring the tenants of your god.  The player should have known that.  I don't need to remind him or tell him that.  He was an idiot who was doing things I didn't like in my game.  He gets punished for that."If he had visions telling him that was a bad idea, alright.  That's fine.  However, I think visions are really heavy handed.  Especially when micromanaging a player's actions.In my games, most clerics and paladins never hear, see, or receive direct guidance from their god.  They know the basic tenants of what their god stands for and they can attempt to embody these tenants in any way they choose.  If that means turning an undead creature instead of running up and fighting it with their sword, it's perfectly fine with me.However, it's my general policy to actively step out of character and inform the player directly each time they are taking an action that I think will make them lose their powers that it is about to happen and give them the choice to undo their action.I'm not sure I'd want to play a character whose actions were constantly micro managed by his god.  Generally, I play it that only severe breaches of the god's philosophy gets your powers removed.  You fail to protect someone in order to protect yourself?  You had a lapse of faith and you might get the sense that your god disapproves of your action.  Maybe not even that if sacrificing them meant you were alive to protect a greater number of people or stop an even greater threat.  If you repeatedly fail to protect people for no good reason, your powers would go away, but I dislike one action immediately removing someone's powers unless it's a majorly evil action.The problem is that apparently your interpretation of protection is different from mine.  I might have signed up to play a character who believes that protecting people is his highest concern, but what lengths I'd have to go to in order to accomplish this goal might not have been clear to me when I agreed to play the character.I've played Paladins before and I understand playing a character who is lawful good and goes to great lengths to protect his allies.  However, in this case I do not see a difference between attempting to turn and running up to the front.  The actions would accomplish about the same thing.  Unless, once again, the turn attempt had a nearly 0% chance of success.  But that's mostly due to the tactical side of me making me feel guilty about taking sub-optimal actions than because I feel that turning isn't an attempt to save your friends.It would be my basis if this was the order of the day.  To me, it's about the same as someone standing behind me while I work saying "You mistyped the customer's name in that spreadsheet wrong.  You're fired!"People make mistakes.  Give them time to correct them.</blockquote>

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