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Is Charm Monster too good?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 7828413" data-attributes="member: 6750235"><p>Lack of concentration is nice but the spell itself doesn't really do that much. The attitude shift is the important part, and protection from being attacked. The discrepancy isn't in the spell but in how the social interaction check was handled.</p><p></p><p>As others mentioned, a bonus action or action to give instructions immediately followed isn't necessarily appropriate. Taking risks is subjective to how much of a risk and in this case the risk was rather extreme (loss of life or loss of family regardless of outcome of the fight).</p><p></p><p>Charmed creates friendship, not control. Convincing friends takes time, not quick actions or commands.</p><p></p><p>From the Cyclops perspective, he's been charmed. He cannot attack the charmer. The charmer is his friend who is trying to convince him to attack someone to whom he's not hostile while the charmer's friends, to whom he is still hostile, is also attacking his other friendly companion. That's the situation taking place while making the persuasion attempt. The DM would still treat the cyclops as any other uncontrolled NPC in a similar situation.</p><p></p><p>The fight would probably be over before the social persuasion could be accomplished, tbh. It's more likely the charmer merely bought himself some protection from one cyclops, and I can see other ways it might play out, but not like what happened.</p><p></p><p>I would also point out that the ability to roll a 22 persuasion is either a lucky roll or the result of significant investment. A 15 DC using a 4th level spell means 8th level characters (+5 ability score, +2 proficiency bonus). In order to roll a 22 on the check the caster needs to either be CHA based or proficient and still have an extremely high roll; or both and <em>only</em> needed a 15 on that check to roll the 22 given barring some hedgecase examples.</p><p></p><p>Even a bard with expertise in persuasion would still need a 13 at that level to make that roll. That means the check itself isn't that difficult for the specific caster in question but still not that casual either an required significant investment or luck. ;-)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The "influence" of the powerful spell is specific in what it does. A persuasion check is not magic, however, and that's what we're really looking at here.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Suggestion actually creates a directive. Even then it's subjective in what that can accomplish.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Either spell ends if you or your companions do something harmful to the subject.</p><p></p><p>Charm person or monster are both over-rated, imo, and the scenario given was an over-powered use of persuasion. ;-)</p><p></p><p>EDIT: brain fart. Level 8 is +3 prof, so +4 casting stat?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ashrym, post: 7828413, member: 6750235"] Lack of concentration is nice but the spell itself doesn't really do that much. The attitude shift is the important part, and protection from being attacked. The discrepancy isn't in the spell but in how the social interaction check was handled. As others mentioned, a bonus action or action to give instructions immediately followed isn't necessarily appropriate. Taking risks is subjective to how much of a risk and in this case the risk was rather extreme (loss of life or loss of family regardless of outcome of the fight). Charmed creates friendship, not control. Convincing friends takes time, not quick actions or commands. From the Cyclops perspective, he's been charmed. He cannot attack the charmer. The charmer is his friend who is trying to convince him to attack someone to whom he's not hostile while the charmer's friends, to whom he is still hostile, is also attacking his other friendly companion. That's the situation taking place while making the persuasion attempt. The DM would still treat the cyclops as any other uncontrolled NPC in a similar situation. The fight would probably be over before the social persuasion could be accomplished, tbh. It's more likely the charmer merely bought himself some protection from one cyclops, and I can see other ways it might play out, but not like what happened. I would also point out that the ability to roll a 22 persuasion is either a lucky roll or the result of significant investment. A 15 DC using a 4th level spell means 8th level characters (+5 ability score, +2 proficiency bonus). In order to roll a 22 on the check the caster needs to either be CHA based or proficient and still have an extremely high roll; or both and [I]only[/I] needed a 15 on that check to roll the 22 given barring some hedgecase examples. Even a bard with expertise in persuasion would still need a 13 at that level to make that roll. That means the check itself isn't that difficult for the specific caster in question but still not that casual either an required significant investment or luck. ;-) The "influence" of the powerful spell is specific in what it does. A persuasion check is not magic, however, and that's what we're really looking at here. Suggestion actually creates a directive. Even then it's subjective in what that can accomplish. Either spell ends if you or your companions do something harmful to the subject. Charm person or monster are both over-rated, imo, and the scenario given was an over-powered use of persuasion. ;-) EDIT: brain fart. Level 8 is +3 prof, so +4 casting stat? [/QUOTE]
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