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<blockquote data-quote="Eirikrautha" data-source="post: 6522681" data-attributes="member: 6777843">That's pretty close to goal-post shifting, if not directly goal-post shifting.&nbsp; The complaint that has been made multiple times on this thread relates to the ineffectiveness of magic based on the ease at which opponents can escape its effects (concentration being the stated way in the title) and the limits that concentration places on caster options.&nbsp; While not addressing the second, spell resistance and spell saves directly address the first.&nbsp; Concentration may be a different approach to limiting spell persistence than spell saves or spell resistance, but it serves the same purpose.If you want to argue that concentration is too onerous based on the fact that it both limits spells' effectiveness and also limits what can be cast, feel free.&nbsp; Many folks have expressed satisfaction with that effect as well (with some even thinking of it as a selling point).&nbsp; But arguing that concentration is an effect and persistence limitation while stating that spell saves or resistance wasn't is patently false.&nbsp; The fact that it happens after the fact is an argument that it is more lenient than earlier mechanics.&nbsp; Design-wise, resistance and saves are even greater limitations than concentration, as neither required an action (while damaging the caster does require the sufferer to spend attack actions).&nbsp; So you can't just dismiss those out of hand.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Eirikrautha, post: 6522681, member: 6777843"] That's pretty close to goal-post shifting, if not directly goal-post shifting. The complaint that has been made multiple times on this thread relates to the ineffectiveness of magic based on the ease at which opponents can escape its effects (concentration being the stated way in the title) and the limits that concentration places on caster options. While not addressing the second, spell resistance and spell saves directly address the first. Concentration may be a different approach to limiting spell persistence than spell saves or spell resistance, but it serves the same purpose. If you want to argue that concentration is too onerous based on the fact that it both limits spells' effectiveness and also limits what can be cast, feel free. Many folks have expressed satisfaction with that effect as well (with some even thinking of it as a selling point). But arguing that concentration is an effect and persistence limitation while stating that spell saves or resistance wasn't is patently false. The fact that it happens after the fact is an argument that it is more lenient than earlier mechanics. Design-wise, resistance and saves are even greater limitations than concentration, as neither required an action (while damaging the caster does require the sufferer to spend attack actions). So you can't just dismiss those out of hand. [/QUOTE]

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