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Message: <blockquote data-quote="RigaMortus" data-source="post: 871245" data-attributes="member: 1077">Provoked = To bring about deliberately; induce.Unprovoked = Not provoked or prompted.Again...  Using this logic: A known Thief is walking down the street. The authorities spot him and give chase, telling him to stop. He runs, because he doesn't want to go to jail. The authorities catch up to him and tackle (ie grapple) him to keep him from escaping. Since the authorities "attacked" the Thief, he is now within his rights to defend himself, knock out the authorities and then CdG them?Who brought about the attack deliberately?  Who induced the attack?  Who initiatied the attack?  Not the Thief, that was farthest from his mind.  He wanted to run away.  He got caught by the guards who "provoked" the attack (last time I checked, grapple was an attack.  Maybe this will change in 3.5?).  They lawfully provoked it, but that was the original posters quote.  I beleive it was (w/o going backwards) that anyone who provokes an attack with you is subject to die.  I'd say he needs to clean up that definition more than I do.Ugh.  If there is other recourse or other ways to deal with him, then killing him is an evil act.  If there isn't, than it isn't.As an aside (just feel the need to clarify something)...  When I am in combat, and get attacked by multiple "things".  My characters mantra isn't, "I'm gonna kill you."  It's more like, "I'm going to take you out of commission, using lethal force if necessary, until you no longer pose a threat.  If I find you bleeding to death, I will do my best to stabilize/heal you once I am no longer threatened.  Unfortunately, if you should you die, that is the risk YOU took when trying to kill me."I like a little flavor in my DnD games.  Not the same old predictablity.  My DM favors this too.  95% of the time if something is "usually or always evil" then it is.  But that other 5% of the time is what keeps me from hacking up every evil thing that crosses my path.Here are two instances that happened in our game (WAY early on).  I play a Paladin in this particular campaign =/We were in a very shady town.  It was pretty much lawless for outsiders (our party), but the people of the town could enjoy some protection from the law.  For example, we were attacked by a press gang.  We defeated them and the authorities didn't do much in the way of help us, they kind of looked the other way because they didn't want to deal with it.  While there was an "understanding" that townsfolk would not be pressed by these gangs.  Just to give you an example of this town.  Anyway...1) We walk into a bar.  There is an assortment of people there.  I scan with Detect Evil, and sure enough the three goblins sitting at a table doing nothing more than enjoying an ale come up as Evil.  I proceed to tell them to leave this bar while I am here or "else".  They took this as a threat (and rightfully so) and attacked me.  I attacked back, and we ended up killing them.  I should mention that some of our own party members refused to fight because they felt I was in the wrong.  Which I was (I was low level and I was trying to play up the fact that I was new to the Paladin thing so I purposely made some mistakes).  I believe now my actions were evil, but my DM let me go lightly.  Since this was my first "offense" it takes more than one evil action to make someone evil.  And at that time I beleived I was doing the right thing.  I learned the error of my ways and moved on.2) We came upon an Evil (I detected him) Orc who was captain of a ship we were to investigate.  His crew attacked us, and we ended up killing them.  The captain however was not there, he was at the tavern.  So we went there and met him (this is where I detected him actually).  Now, instead of just killing him, "because he was evil" and because I learned from a past mistake, we talked to him.  We actually needed his help as it turned out, but we just killed his crew so we had to find a new crew for him.  Which we did (counting ourselves).  Now I was leary of this, as I would be associating with an Evil person BUT my intentions were to show him the error of his ways.  And ya know what?  It worked.  We no longer had to have a party member stay on the ship fearing he would sail away while we explored an island.  Eventually, through kindness, he began to turn Neutral.  He was still motivated by money, but we could trust him.  I Detected Evil on him later, and he didn't show up as Evil any longer.  So in not killing him, we made a valuable ally which we could (and did) trust.  We could have killed him at the tavern and just took his boat, but it turned out for the better.  These are the kind of unpredictable things I like in my games, rather than "He's evil, kill him".  To each his own I guess.They aren't a threat though, unless you can attack while unconcious...  I know, you're saying if an ally heals them back up.  Well, let me ask you this...  How many enemy NPC healers do you know that gave a Ranged Heal spell (Reach Spell)?  Not very many.  So that means they need to touch their ally to heal them.  If I am close enough to CdG an enemy, I will be close enough to attack the healer.  At the very least, I'll be ready to smack the re-concious foe once he does get healed.If the enemy wants to heal him so bad, he must want him alive, right?  Point your sword at the fallen enemies his neck.  "Surrender or this man dies.  Come closer, and this man dies.  Drop your weapons, spell components, focus items, etc. or this man dies."  DM, I ready an action to...  whatever.  And yes, you are Bluffing.  If they call your bluff, they still need to get closer to heal him.Why aren't you thinking of other alternatives other than CdG?  It really isn't that hard.Depends on the evil.  If you are protecting the innocents they are slaightering before your eyes, then maybe not.  I say maybe because, what if you engage him in combat and he surrenders?  Do you kill an unarmed and surrendering man?  He killed people just 30 seconds ago, but he is unarmed and surrendered.  What to do?I agree with this.  I do think (and this may be where we differ) that if there are other alternatives other than killing an opponent or CdG them, a Good person should and WOULD attempt those alternatives first.</blockquote>

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