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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ahnehnois" data-source="post: 5646668" data-attributes="member: 17106">So if I'm playing soccer and I really hate one of the other players and I kick him in the face, injure him and knock him out of the game, and get myself ejected in the process, have I just won? I achieved my goal didn't I?(Note: I don't play soccer, nor do I advocate this kind of behavior. But it does happen).There's a difference between achieving a goal (with our without sacrifice) and winning. Winning is specifically defined by the game, it's not a goal the players (or DM) set for themselves.Normally, wins and losses are defined relative to each other. Someone has to win for someone to lose. In such a TPK, it's hard to argue that anyone won, since whatever game the DM was running is over and that's usually bad for him too. In a TPK everybody loses, which I don't think is a "loss" in the competitive sense  of the word.Sometimes it does. I've seen circumstances where players just weren't happy with a character and didn't mind starting over at all. In my early DMing days, some players were irritatingly ambivalent about their characters' deaths.Equating a PC death with the term "loss" is sort of like equating a favorite TV character getting killed with the actor getting fired. The death of a fictional character may or may not reflect negatively on the person who played that character, and it may or may not negatively affect that person.</blockquote>