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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5647217" data-attributes="member: 22779">This I disagree with.&nbsp; Many games, and RPG's are probably the best example of this, have player determined goals.&nbsp; Just because the goals of the players are not the same as the win/loss determination of the mechanics doesn't change anything.&nbsp; Fair enough.&nbsp; But, that only applies if you presume a competitive and not cooperative game.&nbsp; If everyone loses, it's pretty clearly a loss.&nbsp; Again, true.&nbsp; Character death might not always be a loss.&nbsp; We've already established that.&nbsp; However, since the player is achieving his or her goal, it's a win for that player.&nbsp; Being ejected from the soccer game is not a loss for that player if the player was deliberated choosing to get ejected from that game.&nbsp; The question is, did his ejection achieve the goals that he set out for himself.Very true.&nbsp; However, I would argue that there is nothing inherent in a game which precludes the determination of player goals.&nbsp; So long as they achieve those goals, then they win.&nbsp; Failure to achieve those goals is a loss for that player.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 5647217, member: 22779"] This I disagree with. Many games, and RPG's are probably the best example of this, have player determined goals. Just because the goals of the players are not the same as the win/loss determination of the mechanics doesn't change anything. Fair enough. But, that only applies if you presume a competitive and not cooperative game. If everyone loses, it's pretty clearly a loss. Again, true. Character death might not always be a loss. We've already established that. However, since the player is achieving his or her goal, it's a win for that player. Being ejected from the soccer game is not a loss for that player if the player was deliberated choosing to get ejected from that game. The question is, did his ejection achieve the goals that he set out for himself. Very true. However, I would argue that there is nothing inherent in a game which precludes the determination of player goals. So long as they achieve those goals, then they win. Failure to achieve those goals is a loss for that player. [/QUOTE]

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