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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Rothe" data-source="post: 3187316" data-attributes="member: 39813">Agreed, I think The gneech said it well in post #25  By contemporary standards Volsungs, Jason, Lancelot, etc. did some very immoral deeds.  However, the "hero" typically felt great guilt over acts that were immoral in his own time.  Lancelot is probably the example we can understand the best as closest to us in time and thought.  Compare Jason and the greek heros, being "weak" was more of a character flaw than theft, betraying ones family (even if you did not know them to be your family) was more "immoral" than attacking and enslaving strangers.  Think of Oedipus' guilt.  By contemproary standards he had no idea he slew his father and wed his mother, but motive (or mens rea) didn't matter to the ancient greeks for such crimes.    I question if D&D does emulate the second phase of the hero's journey, the quest.  IIRC a key element of the quest was the hero was to adventure through great odds to redeem something of value, but of the greatest value was the hero discovering himself by acting in a manner consistent with the values of his time, even if at some point he slips or falls from grace.  Thus reinforcing cultural values of the time, act rightly and you will succeed.    These elements can be found in modern "adventure stories" as well IMHO.  Conan succeeding through his barbarian code versus the hypocrisy of civilization; whilst civilized men are driven to wanton acquisition of gain and will do anything for it, there are lines Conan will not cross- like the betrayal of friends.  Conan to me, was about the noble savage.  Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser are friends through thick and thin, two men against a corrupt world.  Neither Conan, Fafhrd or the Grey Mouser sought to make the world a better place, although their actions often did.  Not that I think REH or Fritz had any moral in mind for their tales, but both writers were men of their time and if what they wrote didn't resonate with their audience (or at least what their editors thought) it wouldn't have sold.  All said and done, I voted D&D as not inherently heroic, with some elements that actually discourage it; although, in all the groups past and present I've played in we have been heroic in the sense of risking our character's lives to aid the innocent without need of pay.  Of course, the bad guy treasure is always needed to fund the cause of good. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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