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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5635183" data-attributes="member: 42582">Well, I've explained it in some detail - using the notions of means versus ends, and the related comparison of substance to form in artistic composition. And I'm not the only poster who's put it in these terms (eg [MENTION=6679265]Yesway Jose[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6668292]JamesonCourage[/MENTION], at least, have said similar things - EDIT: also Vegepygmy just above this post).I'd be interested in your comments on this way of putting thins. What strikes me as distinctive about this position, compared to some other "no"-voters, is that it reconciles a "no"-vote with the mechanical focus on combat in the game rules. It doesn't simply put those rules to one side and pretend that the absence of a sophisticated action resolution system amounts to a RP-supporting rules-light game (which is how some of the "in defence of 2nd ed" posts come across to me).I'll only speak to 4e in addressing these questions.The rules support for story structure comes in the form of:(i) quests and quest XP; (ii) the XP rules more generally, which ensure that, simply by turning up and playing the game, players will see their PCs advance from beginning heroes to demigods, who start fighting kobolds and end up fighting Orcus; (iii) the encounter build rules, which aren't as elegant as the pass/fail DC-setting mechanics of HeroQuest, but can still be used very easily to help regulate pacing (and the milestone rules are a part of this); (iv) the combat rules are very clearly designed to produce pacing and story within each combat, as the PCs start out on the backfoot against the stronger at-wills and superior hit points of their opponents, but then rebound and get the upper hand as their deeper resources (encounters, dailies, healing surges) kick in; (v) narration rights are distributed in a variety of ways, but encounters and dailies are part of this, and so are skill challenges when run according to the DMG and PHB guidelines; (vi) story elements are dealt with only weakly in the DMG and MM, but are taken up more seriously in Worlds and Monsters, and in some of the sourcebooks like The Plane Above, Underdark and Demonomicon; (vii) characterisation is left mostly as an exercise for the players, but there is plenty of material to work with even just in the core of the PHB and MM - a lot of thematically-laden conflict is built into the default setting (Raven Queen vs Orcus, Erathis vs Asmodeus or vs demonkind, etc - of course, if all the players want to play halfling rangers who worship Avandra than I agree that the game isn't doing such a good job of supporting character and story - some parts of the setting provide better gaming material than others!); (viii) and, of course, some characterisation follows from mechanical build (eg build a drow sorcerer with chaos bolt and the Demonskin Adept paragon path, and you've got plenty of characterisation built right in - this is one of the PCs in the game I GM).Now obviously this isn't HeroQuest, or even Burning Wheel. But (to go to the other end of the spectrum) it's not Traveller, either.The easy solution to this is - no one person has rights to the plot. I think that the advice on running skill challenges in the DMG wants to say this - that in framing and adjudicating a skill challenge the GM has situational authority, a high degree of backstory authority, a reasonable degree of narrational authority, but not plot authority - but it doesn't quite get there.I think 4e combats clearly don't give the GM plot authority - unless the GM starts fudging or otherwise "cheating" - the core rulebooks don't suggest this option very seriously, but in (what I regard as) a retrograde step the Rules Compendium does canvass that the GM might suspend the action resolution mechanics in order to exercise plot authority. This is one reason why, even though I like Essentials' contribution to some of the lists in the game (lists of classes, powers, feats, monsters) I don't really like its contribution to the overall tone of the game's rules.This may well be true. Like I said, I'm confining my observations to 4e.I agree that it is a primary method. But this doesn't entail, in my view, that it's what the game is about. Riding a bike is my primary means of travelling. But it doesn't follow that my travelling is about riding a bike. It's about getting from A to B, and the reasons why I have to get from A to B. (At least ideally. Sometime something goes wrong, and the means starts to overshadow the end. As I said, I think there are easy ways to try to avoid this, in D&D - or at least 4e - for those who want to.)In Gygax's PHB, it depends on your class: 5, 7 or 9 sp per person per year for a magic-user, fighter or cleric.</blockquote>

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