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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Crazy Jerome" data-source="post: 5641068" data-attributes="member: 54877">Heh. I didn't think we'd come around so quickly to the underpinnings of my narrow definition. This was why I said that there had to be both (craft) technique and discernment--meaning discernment aesthetically. Like many things with a mix of essentially two very different elements, strength in one may cover some weakness in the other. My dad does amateur woodworking, however sometimes at a level beyond many professionals. Long experience can be like that sometimes. He might: 1. Make a servicable cabinet--say for a shop or closet. There is a lot of craft technique involved, because he has that woodworker mindset of even the things you can't see, he knows about. But there really isn't any conscious aesthetic intent--with the crucial exception of keeping the thing from being outright ugly. He won't paint it neon orange, and he will remove rough edges. But the intent is that the thing fade into the background as something useful. Any aesthetic sensibilities informed are going to be almost entirely on the "appreciation of form over style." 2. Make a kitchen cabinet or table. There is even more craft technique involved, and now it is also in the service of an aesthetic intent. For example, the grain of the wood will be checked for beauty instead of merely flaws. And then a stain is selected in order to bring out the natural beauty of the wood. Thus, discernment. But technically, this is a mix of craft and art, in the usual senses of the words, because the thing produced still has a practical purpose separate from any art involved.  3. Make a wooden sculpture. Taking a particular piece of walnut block left over because of a big knot in it, and seeing that the grain is particularly interesting, then building a frame around it so that the grain is brought out by working the block into a spiral on a lathe. Again, several craft technique were necessary (particularly on how to get the block onto the lathe in a non-standard fashion), but all of this is being driven by aesthetic discernment in service of pure art. All of these example he has done, BTW. I think all of them are possible in an RPG, but I think the middle one by far the most common--and due to the medium and somewhat ad hoc nature of the process, unlikely to produce anything that we would consciously hold up as art worth mentioning--except at moments.  1. Kick the doors in, kill the monsters, take their stuff. You might do this exceedingly well, both GM and players, and you might get a certain aesthetic enjoyment out of the form. 2. Play mainly to play the game and tell a story, mixed in with all kinds of social fun and so on. There are times when you are mainly focused on the craft techniques of the thing, and times when you go for certain aesthetic discernment--and thus also times when the two come together. If they really click, you might get good art.  3. This last one, where all the craft techniques are pushed towards and inform an aesthetic preference I think is probably more sought than achieved, but it is certainly possible to pull it off for short periods. Like any group effort, I would think there would have to be both individual and group unity and ability in both the underlying techniques and the aesthetic discernment to get very far. That's possible, merely not something that happens often in a medium as young as roleplaying, done almost entirely as a hobby.</blockquote>

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