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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8407482" data-attributes="member: 93670">I've GM'd over more 5e character deaths than 3.5 ones.&nbsp; IME an actual TPK in 5e is either something&nbsp; (basically) instant&nbsp; like the hidden goblin ambush on a level 1 party in LMOP or an aoe effect (ie fireball/dragon breath) like the demilich/green dragon in LMOP around level 3-5 but everyone fails &amp; is down unable to do anythingas they effectively bleed out with an angry opponent to swat them back down if they get &quot;lucky&quot; with death saves.&nbsp;&nbsp; As levels go up it becomes harder &amp; harder to TPK even deliberately.&nbsp; one off PC deaths however tend to be everyone saying things like &quot;wow I didn't expect that to happen so fast&quot; or eel like the obvious product of a straight up execution even when completely coincidental.Unlike past editions there is no need for players carry an ace or two in their back pocket so they can really kick things in gear once things begin going sideways let lone watch for things that might be going sideways in order to divert disaster before the course is set.&nbsp; This is a side effect that results from glaringly gamist hacks&nbsp; plastered all over the control/buff/debuff type spell &amp; ability glue that used to form the core for the group to bind their A-game teamwork around.&nbsp; 5e characters don't really work together as a team so much as soloing near each other &amp; even characters like those built around control/buff/debuffare just kind of accepted by the rest of the solo squad who never needs to put much thought or effort into teamwork. They can't really kick things into overdrive &amp; really work together with force multipliers upon force multipliers &amp; even if they honestly try it won't make much difference &amp; [spoiler=&quot;they won't need it&quot;][MEDIA=youtube]FmD0ZCDuozk[/MEDIA][/spoiler]Jmarso's comment about the ghoul/ghast/vampire/etc is probably not simply a matter of having fun &quot; watching the other PCs play out the fight&quot; because that description of the curtain fall&nbsp; skips past the dance that&nbsp; got there. In the past editions where terrifying monsters did level drain &amp; hard/slow to recover ability damage it was critical for everyone to bring their A-game &amp; set aside &quot;well my character would...&quot; type pettiness in order to work together on a level that borders on <a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompetencePorn" target="_blank">competence porn</a>.&nbsp; Failing to do that meant one or more players in the party quickly &amp; easily being beat into a state where just trying to run away is going to be difficult &amp; potentially lethal all the way to the point where they are in a tavern paying rookie adventurers to save them from the scary scary rats in the basement.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 8407482, member: 93670"] I've GM'd over more 5e character deaths than 3.5 ones. IME an actual TPK in 5e is either something (basically) instant like the hidden goblin ambush on a level 1 party in LMOP or an aoe effect (ie fireball/dragon breath) like the demilich/green dragon in LMOP around level 3-5 but everyone fails & is down unable to do anythingas they effectively bleed out with an angry opponent to swat them back down if they get "lucky" with death saves. As levels go up it becomes harder & harder to TPK even deliberately. one off PC deaths however tend to be everyone saying things like "wow I didn't expect that to happen so fast" or eel like the obvious product of a straight up execution even when completely coincidental. Unlike past editions there is no need for players carry an ace or two in their back pocket so they can really kick things in gear once things begin going sideways let lone watch for things that might be going sideways in order to divert disaster before the course is set. This is a side effect that results from glaringly gamist hacks plastered all over the control/buff/debuff type spell & ability glue that used to form the core for the group to bind their A-game teamwork around. 5e characters don't really work together as a team so much as soloing near each other & even characters like those built around control/buff/debuffare just kind of accepted by the rest of the solo squad who never needs to put much thought or effort into teamwork. They can't really kick things into overdrive & really work together with force multipliers upon force multipliers & even if they honestly try it won't make much difference & [spoiler="they won't need it"][MEDIA=youtube]FmD0ZCDuozk[/MEDIA] [/spoiler] Jmarso's comment about the ghoul/ghast/vampire/etc is probably not simply a matter of having fun " watching the other PCs play out the fight" because that description of the curtain fall skips past the dance that got there. In the past editions where terrifying monsters did level drain & hard/slow to recover ability damage it was critical for everyone to bring their A-game & set aside "well my character would..." type pettiness in order to work together on a level that borders on [URL='https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompetencePorn']competence porn[/URL]. Failing to do that meant one or more players in the party quickly & easily being beat into a state where just trying to run away is going to be difficult & potentially lethal all the way to the point where they are in a tavern paying rookie adventurers to save them from the scary scary rats in the basement. [/QUOTE]

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