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<blockquote data-quote="Heap Thaumaturgist" data-source="post: 349780" data-attributes="member: 4516">Some of it could be the popularity and ease-of-play you get with D20 ... It brings in alot of new players.&nbsp; In my experience, new players tend to be largely ... mmm ... new.&nbsp; I just introduced a friend of mine to NWN (as a step toward getting a Pen-n-Paper group together) ... he's played computer RPGs and Final Fantasy and whatnot for eons and eons.&nbsp; The first thing he did when he got done reading the mini-PHB included in NWN was to say:&nbsp; &quot;Holy crap that's cool.&nbsp; I'm going to be a monk ... an EVIL monk!!&quot;&nbsp; Because monks get alot of nifty-o abilities and it's usually hard to play &quot;Evil&quot; characters in, say, Final Fantasy games.&nbsp; Games that are scripted out for you, in which the player has very little say in the outcome of the story, but merely follows along as the story &quot;unfolds&quot;, killing monsters and getting loot as they go.I really wouldn't want to run a game for him or my other non-gamer room mates because they'll be new, and they'll be excited about all the powerful things they can do and that they can &quot;be&quot; evil.&nbsp; Because those options aren't usually available outside of RPGs.&nbsp; Casting Meteor Swarm on a local church isn't an option in Harn.&nbsp; Just because it's there doesn't mean that D&amp;D is immature.&nbsp; Just that you can do it.&nbsp; Is it the D&amp;D that makes for immature style?&nbsp; I don't think so.&nbsp; I know these guys, and I'm sure later one they'll be more interested in any storylines I want to run than in killing and looting and being evil.&nbsp; Harn is more complex, more difficult, and (frankly) more &quot;boring&quot; to newbie players.&nbsp; I'm sure there are people who were introduced to Harn off the street and thought it was the greatest thing since the discovery of fire, but y'know, I doubt they're the majority of people.&nbsp; From the responses, it seems like some of Harn's player-base is made up of &quot;Burn Outs&quot; from D&amp;D ... people who get tired of immature players, of power-ramping, of looking for loot when they could be exploring the depth of whatever it is that Harn people do.&nbsp; Why?&nbsp; Harn is more constraining.&nbsp; &nbsp; D&amp;D you can run low-fantasy, D&amp;D you can run low-level, high story, whatever.&nbsp; It's produced for power-ramping and pretzel eating and &quot;Dude I DEMOLISHED that orc!&quot; because that's what the grand majority of humanity likes in their RPG game on the weekend.&nbsp; We here ARE the minority, and we're all (by definition) more deeply involved in our RPGs than Joe Average Gamer.I see Harn as sort of a sub-culture of RPGs.&nbsp; Harn is a signifier tag that says:&nbsp; &quot;I play RPGs in a certain way.&quot;&nbsp; Harn lets Harn-People recognize other Harn-People.&nbsp; It's still the same sort of thing (Playing a role in a game) just a different flavor of milk.&nbsp;&nbsp; Music is Music.&nbsp; Some people like punk.&nbsp; Green hair and a punk band T-Shirt is a great way of saying:&nbsp; &quot;I like punk.&quot; ... doesn't mean punk is any more or less mature than, say, Verdi.&nbsp; Just different.--HT--ht</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Heap Thaumaturgist, post: 349780, member: 4516"] Some of it could be the popularity and ease-of-play you get with D20 ... It brings in alot of new players. In my experience, new players tend to be largely ... mmm ... new. I just introduced a friend of mine to NWN (as a step toward getting a Pen-n-Paper group together) ... he's played computer RPGs and Final Fantasy and whatnot for eons and eons. The first thing he did when he got done reading the mini-PHB included in NWN was to say: "Holy crap that's cool. I'm going to be a monk ... an EVIL monk!!" Because monks get alot of nifty-o abilities and it's usually hard to play "Evil" characters in, say, Final Fantasy games. Games that are scripted out for you, in which the player has very little say in the outcome of the story, but merely follows along as the story "unfolds", killing monsters and getting loot as they go. I really wouldn't want to run a game for him or my other non-gamer room mates because they'll be new, and they'll be excited about all the powerful things they can do and that they can "be" evil. Because those options aren't usually available outside of RPGs. Casting Meteor Swarm on a local church isn't an option in Harn. Just because it's there doesn't mean that D&D is immature. Just that you can do it. Is it the D&D that makes for immature style? I don't think so. I know these guys, and I'm sure later one they'll be more interested in any storylines I want to run than in killing and looting and being evil. Harn is more complex, more difficult, and (frankly) more "boring" to newbie players. I'm sure there are people who were introduced to Harn off the street and thought it was the greatest thing since the discovery of fire, but y'know, I doubt they're the majority of people. From the responses, it seems like some of Harn's player-base is made up of "Burn Outs" from D&D ... people who get tired of immature players, of power-ramping, of looking for loot when they could be exploring the depth of whatever it is that Harn people do. Why? Harn is more constraining. D&D you can run low-fantasy, D&D you can run low-level, high story, whatever. It's produced for power-ramping and pretzel eating and "Dude I DEMOLISHED that orc!" because that's what the grand majority of humanity likes in their RPG game on the weekend. We here ARE the minority, and we're all (by definition) more deeply involved in our RPGs than Joe Average Gamer. I see Harn as sort of a sub-culture of RPGs. Harn is a signifier tag that says: "I play RPGs in a certain way." Harn lets Harn-People recognize other Harn-People. It's still the same sort of thing (Playing a role in a game) just a different flavor of milk. Music is Music. Some people like punk. Green hair and a punk band T-Shirt is a great way of saying: "I like punk." ... doesn't mean punk is any more or less mature than, say, Verdi. Just different. --HT --ht [/QUOTE]

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