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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kaptain_Kantrip" data-source="post: 357502" data-attributes="member: 546">Man, the things that happen when I'm gone. I leave both the Harn forum and ENWorld for a week or two (real life concerns intruded, unfortunately), and there are two huge threads on the issue I hold so near and dear to my heart, LOL.Well, look, hopefully I can say a few things here without sparking a flame war or causing the thread to devolve into something uncivil... not that I've bothered to read more than a handful of posts in it yet, except SHARK's, Gygax's and a few others on page 1 and 2, so don't freak out if this has already been covered...When I said D&D/d20 (after 1e) is obsessed with childish, immature concepts, I did not provide clear examples in my haste to post and inherent laziness. Here are a few examples:#1: When Gygax left TSR, Lorraine Williams took over and started catering to the religious right and trying to curb "angry mother syndrome" (this was mentioned in a Dragon mag of the time). They removed all references to demons, devils, daemons and other classic staples of fantasy and turned them into "outsiders" (native races from another plane), a deplorable concept that continues in 3e, though in a compromised revision that doesn't work, IMO. Is anyone in their right mind going to stick up for Ms. Williams? I don't think so!#2: In 2e under Ms. Williams, we saw a deliberate dumbing down of characters and concepts (such as in FR with Time of Troubles and power boosting everyone to retarded levels of omipotence). We also saw the destruction (out of spite) by Ms. William's of Gygax's beloved Greyhawk setting. Again, Ms. William's regime reduced the number of adventure modules (and the ones that were put out were vastly inferior in many cases to 1e ones such as Ravenloft or Tomb of Horrors, or Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth) in favor of endless sourcebooks of dubious quality and usefulness. #3: Gone was the suggestive and lurid art of 1e, with naked girls and demonic sacrifice and gore, all fantasy genre staples.#4: The increased rules of 2e restricted player and GM choice rather than enhanced it (though I did like 2.5e's Skills & Powers for giving me more freedom in character creation). 3e goes a long way toward fixing this problem, but not far enough. 3e is a half-measure mired in archaic rules and concepts. Even 3e's designers will tell you that they didn't go far enough in changing the rules!#5: The world settings in 2e were childish or poorly conceived: Planescape, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, even Birthright. Greyhawk was quickly dropped (after being ruined by Wars) and FR spiralled out of control. The original 1e gray boxed set was good, but 2e's FR was when I lost interest.#6: Guidelines for adventures and other products were restricted, keeping out certain "adult" subject matter. These 2e guidelines are still more or less in effect with 3e, though things are loosening up with the Book of Vile Darkness it seems, but the fact that such is relegated to a separate product instead of liberally mixed in with the core books clearly shows that political correctness and fear of angry moms/religious right still holds sway at WoTC.#7: 1e was revolutionary for its time and reeked of an abiding love and respect for the genre, embracing all its staples. This was annihilated in 2e and only partially reintroduced in 3e... again, a half-measure to "play it safe". Playing it safe never satisfies either side you're trying to appeal to. Don't they teach that in marketing class? At any rate, all 2e was was a "paint by numbers" minor tweak to 1e with a few concepts ripped off from other systems (like having Skills, like Palldaium FRPG, GURPS, etc.). 3e was a major tweak and big improvement, but did not go far enough to bringing the rules set up to date and "state of the art", stubbornly clinging to the "old ways" for fear of aliennating the old school fans. Look, I made it through the entire post without praising Harn! I don't want this to turn into a Harn vs. D&D thread, but I will point out that Harn has never changed its content policies and has always included demons, rape, torture, incest, human sacrifice,  and other "adult" themes. That's one of the reasons I prefer Harn. It never "dumbed down" or succumbed to the iron fist of political correctness, and I have to respect and admire them for that. I wish I could say the same for D&D, I really do, and if Gygax were still running the show, I'm sure I could, because Gary would never have betrayed and disrespected his fans like Ms. Williams did, nor tried to placate both sides with half-measures like WoTC has done. I want to make it clear that D&D was my first RPG, that I love the gift Gary gave us, and that Gary Gygax made me a better person through D&D. I played every edition of the game, and I love the game, I just don't love what it has become over the intervening decades since Gary left. I think Harn (the setting) has stayed true to the spirit of what Gary started without compromise, and that their HarnMaster rules are vastly superior to any version of D&D or d20 for running more realistic characters and combats.PS: Hi, Gary! **waves** <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></blockquote>

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