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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Wyrmshadows" data-source="post: 4042012" data-attributes="member: 56166">Is D&D really supposed to simulate mythic roleplaying? I mean, has D&D gone from approximating the Sword and Sorcery daring do of REH's Conan and Tolkien's LoTR saga to the Epic of Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Achilles, Hercules, Perseus, etc?I am asking this because some of the assumptions I have read on RPing boards about how high level PCs should be superheroes capable of wrestling rogue dragons and drinking the seas from their mead horns. This isn't a judgment, just an observation.Personally I don't think that D&D is really geared for mythic role-playing. When D&D does epic (ie. mythic) what I see, unless one has a very good DM and excellent players willing to go deeper into things, is an extension of the same. Instead of 10th level dungeons, there are now 23rd level dungeons, more slaughter, more aquisition ad nauseum until the PCs either die or retire. D&D can be much deeper than this, and for many it is, but lets face it for many epic means nothing more than a greater level of power ups. This doesn't strike me as mythic in any way. IMO when D&D does mythic I don't see the Greek Hercules or Achilles, the Babylonian Gilgamesh or Egyptian Isis (as a woman who learned RA's truename and became a goddess), instead I see Xena Warrior Princess and Hercules the Legendary Journeys. All the woo-woo, cool abilities, bad martial arts but not much else. I believe that this is in part because of the nature of the game and not in and of itself a failing of DMs or players. It takes a DM and players who are willing to work a mythic atmosphere into the game as a thematic element that transcends the rules.4e proposes an Epic tier where PCs can battle a god or two and possess epic destinies and whatnot. Sounds good, but there is an immense gulf between the fantasy of novel fiction and that of mythology. Outside of distinctly non-mortal agencies in fantasy fiction such as Gandalf no one really accomplishes what mythic heroes were capable of because much of their abilities were due to divine or semi-divine birthright. Gandalf is a good example because of his battle with the Balrog man to demon and Gandalf wasn't a human being. Also 4e is granting magical powers to everyone past level 20. I guess everyone gains some divine spark at a certain level.Even the greatest Greek heroes beyond the classical age looked up to the amazing figures of their myths who accomplished what mortals could not because they were not mortals and served as an ideal to aspire to. None could be as strong as Hercules without the blood of Zeus. I really belive that the relationship between D&D and mythology is very tenuous at best. Myths are folklore and on a deeper level represent deep symbolism and metaphor about the human condition. Read as mere fiction, myths are illogical, surreal, filled with wild inconsistancies, weapons that can shear off mountaintops (something that makes D&D's over the top magic seem petty in comparison) and Mary Sue type semi-divine characters because they are myths. Hell, most well managed D&D campaigns are more interally consistant than a lot of the stories in mythology. Myths can be read as either odd (to the modern mind) stories or metaphors for deeper realities...I choose the latter because the former is IMO often unsatisfying. I would argue that fantasy RPing is informed by mythology just like Tolkien's works were informed by mythology. However, D&D has never been a game of playing mythic heroes that transcend even the near superhuman heights of ability found in even High Fantasy. D&D has always been more akin to Sword and Sorcery fiction with a dose of High Fantasy tossed in. Sword and Sorcery because of its assumed focus of wealth aquisition and glory. The High Fantasy element is found in the prevalence of magic, black and white morality, fantastic creatures and gods who interact frequently with mortals (relatively so).In 23+yrs of DMing D&D the ONLY thing I have seen in regards to the mythic is the use of certain names in Deities and Demigods, certain artifacts and certain monsters. D&D's character isn't one of mythic role playing in the Age of Heroes. At best D&D (as written in the core rules of every edition thus far) borrows from the mythic no more than it borrows from Tolkien and other popular fantasy....as a reference point and not as an example of how to play the game or the assumed atmosphere and theme of given campaigns.I have seen one published setting intentionally set in a mythic age of heroes and that is Fantasy Flight's Dawnforge. Every other setting has been Sword and Sorcery, High Fantasy or a mixture of both.I think thaf is going to have mythic heroes that change the of the world, found great religions, empires, and become part of the actual legend of the setting in which they are  a part, the game must at epic tier, change focus if epic is to mean anything. I am just one of those wet blankets who sees Odysseus' journey and Conan's adventures as epic even if they didn't reach over 20th level. LOTR was an epic. The Dragonlance Saga (pre Age of Mortals) was an epic tale where heroes didn't get past 15th or 16th level and saved their world.These are epics, not just crossing some metagame goalpost and becoming an epic "hero." Without the proper thematic elements in place, I don't see anything epic/mythic about someone just because they stepped over some arbitrary line in the sand between hero and superhero.Please discuss.Wyrmshadows</blockquote>

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