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Is D&D Too Focused on Combat?
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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7733693" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>From your perspective, perhaps; but I'll wager framing is a far bigger thing to you than to most people here.</p><p></p><p>Because if the system allows players to cop out of the roleplaying, or just skip over it, and simply say "I roll a [diplomacy/persuasion/whatever] check" then sure as shootin' some of them are going to do so.</p><p></p><p>First off, like it or not 3e's Diplomacy (and Bluff, and Intimidate, etc.) does count - it's the thin end of the wedge.</p><p></p><p>As for your examples, while there's some fine role-play in there there's also a fair amount of "here's what I want to do, let's see if the dice let it happen".</p><p></p><p>And in this one the game system itself allows for so many mechanics to interfere (a He's-Not-Too-Bad-After-All complication? A d8 Drunk complication? Never mind the insertion of Plot Points to shift the goalposts within the RP) that it becomes impossible to ignore them...which doesn't suit free-form roleplaying at all as in these instances one ideally wants the mechanics to completely get out of the way and stay there.</p><p></p><p>They do, though in the Marvel example most of those unexpected twists and turns seem forced by mechanics rather than arising out of the actual roleplay.</p><p></p><p>That sais, you also seem to have players who are willing to let the mechanics drive the direction of what they roleplay as their characters and roll with it. We don't all have this. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>There's a third option that falls between these two: that the DM gets in character as the town official - gives it a personality, etc. - and responds naturally as the town official would to what's being said by the PC(s). If needed, the DM can bang off a few quick rolls to give herself an idea of what makes this person tick (ethics? level of adherence to law or policy? right-now mood? overall mood? etc.) and then just play the character.</p><p></p><p>But, in the end it comes down to if PCs want to be persuasive in character it requires the players to be persuasive at the table - this is kind of the point. Also, it's always possible the DM didn't have anything in mind, particularly if she's had little or no warning that this encounter was coming.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>DM: [has just narrated that the PCs have been allowed an audience with the town official]</p><p>Player: "I use my Diplomacy skill* to convince the town official to give us access to the records we need."</p><p>DM: "What are you saying to her?"</p><p>Player: "Whatever seems best. Can I roll now?"</p><p></p><p>* - or replace with the system-appropriate mechanic for the game/edition being played</p><p></p><p>Without social mechanics the above player-DM interaction simply can't occur. With them, it's a common thing.</p><p></p><p>This is better, though it would still be relatively easy to stay completely out of character and - for the Smitten example - just say something like "Freddy makes eyes at her and goes heavy on the sweet talk. Does this give me a Smitten advantage?". Not the desired result, I don't think. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Lan-"what happened to the days of 'if you say it at the table, your character says it in the game'?"-efan</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 7733693, member: 29398"] From your perspective, perhaps; but I'll wager framing is a far bigger thing to you than to most people here. Because if the system allows players to cop out of the roleplaying, or just skip over it, and simply say "I roll a [diplomacy/persuasion/whatever] check" then sure as shootin' some of them are going to do so. First off, like it or not 3e's Diplomacy (and Bluff, and Intimidate, etc.) does count - it's the thin end of the wedge. As for your examples, while there's some fine role-play in there there's also a fair amount of "here's what I want to do, let's see if the dice let it happen". And in this one the game system itself allows for so many mechanics to interfere (a He's-Not-Too-Bad-After-All complication? A d8 Drunk complication? Never mind the insertion of Plot Points to shift the goalposts within the RP) that it becomes impossible to ignore them...which doesn't suit free-form roleplaying at all as in these instances one ideally wants the mechanics to completely get out of the way and stay there. They do, though in the Marvel example most of those unexpected twists and turns seem forced by mechanics rather than arising out of the actual roleplay. That sais, you also seem to have players who are willing to let the mechanics drive the direction of what they roleplay as their characters and roll with it. We don't all have this. :) There's a third option that falls between these two: that the DM gets in character as the town official - gives it a personality, etc. - and responds naturally as the town official would to what's being said by the PC(s). If needed, the DM can bang off a few quick rolls to give herself an idea of what makes this person tick (ethics? level of adherence to law or policy? right-now mood? overall mood? etc.) and then just play the character. But, in the end it comes down to if PCs want to be persuasive in character it requires the players to be persuasive at the table - this is kind of the point. Also, it's always possible the DM didn't have anything in mind, particularly if she's had little or no warning that this encounter was coming. DM: [has just narrated that the PCs have been allowed an audience with the town official] Player: "I use my Diplomacy skill* to convince the town official to give us access to the records we need." DM: "What are you saying to her?" Player: "Whatever seems best. Can I roll now?" * - or replace with the system-appropriate mechanic for the game/edition being played Without social mechanics the above player-DM interaction simply can't occur. With them, it's a common thing. This is better, though it would still be relatively easy to stay completely out of character and - for the Smitten example - just say something like "Freddy makes eyes at her and goes heavy on the sweet talk. Does this give me a Smitten advantage?". Not the desired result, I don't think. :) Lan-"what happened to the days of 'if you say it at the table, your character says it in the game'?"-efan [/QUOTE]
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