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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sorrowdusk" data-source="post: 5419448" data-attributes="member: 96342"> Then isnt IT the SPELLS and not the wizard that need to be fixed if one or two spells can end an encounter? I wouldnt take the wizards slots away necessarily, I'd remove or alter the spells, or increase monsters ability to save.     And havent magicians in fiction and fantasy ALWAYS done these things? Hell, Saul conjured up and spoke with the dead back in ye olde testament. On as SIDE note, players should NOT be denied their divinations. You should also remember that while divinations may give hints YOU in control. WHAT makes you think the dead guy SAW his attacker? AND- dont forget that often information recieved under Speak With Dead is cryptic rather than straightforward.   And WHATS the problem? Thats what Wizards do. If a fighter were confronted with a deadly situation you would fully expect him to use some physical skill to solve the problem, be it swimming or climbing, trying to trip or grapple an enemy, or just chopping it up with his sword. But what about out of combat?  So whats a wizard do? HE CAST'S A SPELL. And of course he does the wizard is MAGICAL. Magic can do anything -its FANTASTICAL! I mean with the proper spell you can even make your own demi-planes. YES fantasy has had its epic warriors, its Hercules, Gilgameshes and its Samsons but, the fact of the matter is- is that a Wizard, a Sorceror, a magician be his power divine or secret knowledge, can and should by very definition be able to do things that NO classical warrior has any bussiness doing EVER.  The problem with the fighter or nonmagical class, is that he is mundane. He's may be far stronger and quicker, almost supernaturally so-but otherwise the things he can do are limited to his physical actions, skills, and abilities, no matter how strong. OH And the warrior is SOOOOOOO screwed against say, A WRAITH-you know, one the truly fantastical threats in a fantastical setting. He cant touch it, not unless he has that magical sword that some Wizard or a Cleric in his party to loose divine wrath upon it. In fact, a warrior completely devoid of magical items he's expected to have at any given level is severely weakened. If magicians just stopped making all that crap for other people, where would the fighter be then?  Then again....where would the magicians be without the melee classes to tank for them when they cant fly or cant be invisible against some thing with magic eyes, or what have you. Frankly, sometimes being physically tough, is the only thing that can save you.  Ultimately though, the classes never have, and never will be perfectly balanced against one another. (somtimes never at all) You are comparing two unlike things that nonethless-each serve a purpose in a party with the mage being the most versatile. But this "wizards" what about Clerics? Its really more CASTERS in general.  What can a divine agent do?  -DEFENDERS OF THE FAITH (p. 77) Could a fighter do any of that with no magic at all? Yes. But he would have to try very, very, hard. The sourcebooks tell us this. This is what happens when you live in a kitchen sink high fantasy world. Magic sets you FREE-no matter how strong or fast you are, magic can go beyond physical limits to literally make the impossible-POSSIBLE. Take that away, and its not really magical. OH ~And the CLERIC* is a trained WARRIOR-he doesnt melee bad and can wear heavy armor!~ Even in Shadowrun, my mage can do so many things mundanes cant. TRUE his total selection of spells is far smaller than any D&D magician, but he can summon spirits to aid in many tasks and use their own magical abilities. Thats the way magic is. Nonetheless, he's still mortal and SR is a much more lethal game than D&D (Chunky Salsa My Friends).  In a kitchen sink fantasy like D&D you're mixing gritty mundande swordsman with fantastic Harry Potter. Those two get in a fight one on one-well we know who would win frankly, its to be expected-of course they were never intended to fight against each other like that, rather they were intended to work together each doing what they excel at. The swordsman will be a swordsman. I will say that 4E powers and system of Daily/At Will/Encounter abilities were hinted at or foreshadowed a bit with Bo9S manuevers, and served to give melee classes more options. There are some possibilites for 3E: A. Take away all magic or play a very low magic settingB. Make all casters distant NPCs, Evil Wizards with undead armies (HEY-EVEN SAURON got his arse whooped by some little haflings) and lordly Priest-Kings.C. GIVE the fighter-indeed ALL CLASSES at least some magic. *Magical Warriors. If you're going to have a high fantasy setting, you might as well do it. D. Just live with the way things are in a high fantasy game, if you're going to play a superhuman/action-movie-heroic, but otherwise mundane person.  And THIS...this is just a fact of the inherent nature of the game.  And yes as you may have guessed-I like magicians. In fact, they are my most favored character archetype in any setting or game. However-I have played Barbs, Rouges, Knights, and Monks and you know what? I still had fun anyway, and I didnt try or think I was going to be what the party Cleric, Druid, Wizard or what have you was.</blockquote>

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