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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ProfessorCirno" data-source="post: 5419451" data-attributes="member: 65637">1) In most cases where the deceased doesn't know, magic is involved there, so you need magic to counter magic - not a selling point.  Or, again, just divination it up.2) Why don't you have access to this?  YOu can teleport and fly to any city in the world.  Are you saying that no wizards ever offer their services or sell scrolls or let other wizards copy from their spell books?Magic is like a secret.  If 10 people know a secret and 9 don't tell, the secret is out. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />Summon MonsterAgain, flight has power far, far beyond combat.  I'm talking about narrative power.  The wizard can literally fly over raging rivers or dangerous mountains and sheer cliffs.  A towering citadel is worthless to something that flies.Again, if the only answer to magic is more magic then my point is proven even stronger.Not really.  You don't need to be a Gargantuan creature to be hilariously powerful.People overlook a lot of good things.Here I will agree - invisibility can be cancelled by a lot.Unless you're invisible and flying ;pAgain, magic cancelling magic doesn't disprove my point.The power of disintegrate isn't in the HP damage, which is why I think a lot of people tend to ignore it more then they should.  It's a trend I see a lot, really.  HP damage is so minute of a thing that wizards can do compared to their ability to completely reshape a battlefield to their desires.  Being able to disintegrate any amount of matter is insanely potent.  Walls - or almost any type of barrier - no longer have meaning.See, that's my problem.To give a fighter challenges is easy.  Most things can be a challenge to a fighter.  Sheer cliffs, dangerous terrain, deadly monsters.  But to challenge a wizard you have to go out of your way to do it.  You need magic to cancel out magic, because that's the only thing that can.  A fighter cannot cancel out a wizard, but a wizard can cancel out a fighter.  Unless the fighter is using something that another wizard made.I actually agree here.My gripe is this - in order to play this way, the wizard and cleric either have to, be it purposefully or accidentally, not play up to their actual narrative power.  Bringing a gun to a fist fight isn't unfair if the guy never shoots the gun...but he still has a gun while everyone else has a knife.  And the wizard gun shoots antimatter bullets and creates an anti-fist shield around him and then changes all of reality.To put it another way, at level 16, the wizard can create his own demiplane.  The fighter, the barbarian, the rogue, the monk, the ranger, and so on, and so on, get the ability to hit things with a stick a bit better.  The wizard isn't even playing the same game as they are - he's playing Exalted while they're playing World of Darkness: Mortals.  And both of those are fun games*!  But they don't really play well together.*Exalted really isn't a fun game, though for mechanical reasons, not fluff reasons <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />For what it's worth, so you know this isn't just me arm-chairing things, I have - quite a few times now - sat down and tried to think on how to reconcile this.  The answer I eventually came up with is this: First, you need to decide if you want a high magic, low magic, or "mid-level" game.  From there, you have to adjust.  In anything but high magic, wizards and their insane versatility are too much.  As are clerics and druids, really.  Sorcerers, funny enough, I don't have that big of a problem with, simply because they lack the insane versatility of always having a spell for every occasion.  For a high magic game, you want to REALLY boost up the noncasters, and give them a means of accomplishing over the top heroic and, really, mythological feats of power and strength, such as Beowulf ripping the arm off Grendel and spending hours underwater searching for the lair, Cu Chulainn's epic warp spasms, or...just about anything that was ever done in the Three Kingdoms.  For a mid level game, which is probably easiest, just nudge players towards classes like the Factotum, the specialized casters (like the beguiler), or Tome of Battle classes.  For low-magic...well, that's it's own thread entirely, and I'd be more then happy to comment on that subject elsewhere if you want <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />This is, of course, going off a 3e chassis.  A 4e chassis, at least for a low magic style game, easier in some aspects, and harder in others.  I unfortunately haven't had a chance to really stare at 4e mechanics and build a really low-magic style game out of them.*Exalted really isn't a fun game, though for mechanical reasons, not fluff reasons <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />Yes, a flat chance to miss is way worse then AC which becomes  increasingly hilariously worthless as you level, unless you devout a lot  of resources into it, at which point only half the creatures  will simply auto-bypass it <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/ponder.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":hmm:" title="Hmmm    :hmm:" data-shortname=":hmm:" /></blockquote>

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