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<blockquote data-quote="D'karr" data-source="post: 3140071" data-attributes="member: 336">The problem with the example is the following.&nbsp; D&amp;D doesn't require an agreement between the player and the DM to resolve conflict/situations.&nbsp; As a matter of fact the game has certain situations in which the players don't get to roll the dice, the DM does, if he chooses.If you don't want to make it obvious that something is about to pounce on the characters, or that they are about to step on a trap, or whatever then you can make the roll secretly for the player.&nbsp; What about the &quot;Detect Secret Doors&quot; ability of elfs.&nbsp; If you have to come to an agree with the player on anything, then haven't you by default given up the &quot;secret.&quot;The rules are pretty specific in some cases.&nbsp; Set a DC if the roll is equal to or higher than the DC then the conflict is resolved.&nbsp; So in the case of the Move Silently / Hide situation the DC should be set, if the player rolls equal or above the DC then he succeeds.&nbsp; If the DM decides that he wants to change that then he is in effect &quot;cheating&quot;.&nbsp; Good or Bad it just boils down to that.There are situations where I do want to or need to &quot;cheat&quot; and there are situations where I let the die fall where they mayI'd rather have D&amp;D continue to operate under the assumptions that it has always operated.&nbsp; The DM is the final arbiter and needs to be fair.&nbsp; By the way I was just looking at my Basic D&amp;D set (Moldvay) the other day and those two things were in there too.&nbsp; Asshatery aside, I believe D&amp;D works best that way.&nbsp; My point has always been that, for D&amp;D, DM Fiat is okay.If you prefer games that don't have that, that is fine.&nbsp; They're just not D&amp;D.But the only examples I see here of DM Fiat are the ones where the DM is using his ability to screw the players.&nbsp; Then these examples are touted as the reason why DM Fiat is bad.&nbsp; I disagree.&nbsp; Those are just examples of extremes, just as if the DM in the &quot;agreement&quot; game set the resolution roll &quot;too high&quot; would be an extreme.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="D'karr, post: 3140071, member: 336"] The problem with the example is the following. D&D doesn't require an agreement between the player and the DM to resolve conflict/situations. As a matter of fact the game has certain situations in which the players don't get to roll the dice, the DM does, if he chooses. If you don't want to make it obvious that something is about to pounce on the characters, or that they are about to step on a trap, or whatever then you can make the roll secretly for the player. What about the "Detect Secret Doors" ability of elfs. If you have to come to an agree with the player on anything, then haven't you by default given up the "secret." The rules are pretty specific in some cases. Set a DC if the roll is equal to or higher than the DC then the conflict is resolved. So in the case of the Move Silently / Hide situation the DC should be set, if the player rolls equal or above the DC then he succeeds. If the DM decides that he wants to change that then he is in effect "cheating". Good or Bad it just boils down to that. There are situations where I do want to or need to "cheat" and there are situations where I let the die fall where they may I'd rather have D&D continue to operate under the assumptions that it has always operated. The DM is the final arbiter and needs to be fair. By the way I was just looking at my Basic D&D set (Moldvay) the other day and those two things were in there too. Asshatery aside, I believe D&D works best that way. My point has always been that, for D&D, DM Fiat is okay. If you prefer games that don't have that, that is fine. They're just not D&D. But the only examples I see here of DM Fiat are the ones where the DM is using his ability to screw the players. Then these examples are touted as the reason why DM Fiat is bad. I disagree. Those are just examples of extremes, just as if the DM in the "agreement" game set the resolution roll "too high" would be an extreme. [/QUOTE]

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