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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 5706638" data-attributes="member: 177">My original statement doesn't require it at the mortal level - just that it exists at all.  I mentioned the turtles because some arguments that hold for long (even very long) chains can be shown to fail for *infinitely* long chains, and wished to see if that's what you meant.Okay, so I think there you've pretty much proved my point.  I said that rights don't have meaning without free will.  Certainly, this is "rights" as I mean them, since I was the speaker.Those who believe in free will are going to agree with my statement.  Those who do not will also agree, insofar as "rights" as I mean them don't exist at all, and thus don't have meaning with or without free will!  My statement, is, in essence, tautological.  I think, in a D&D world, a Lawful mortal with a grasp of logic would probably claim the universe is not fully deterministic (yet), and free will exists (at least for now), because to do otherwise is nihilistic.D&D's lawfulness implies a dedication to supporting and spreading law and order.  If, however, you accept that the universe is already deterministic, then that determinism already includes the elements that mortals, in their ignorance, call "chaotic".  There is no point to supporting and spreading law and order if, in fact, everyone is already in the grip of same.  The job the lawful person wants to do is already done, further effort is not required, and we can all go home and have a nice cup of tea - and that we would do so is, of course, already fated.In the real world, those who argue that the world is deterministic are not generally in the business of spreading or supporting the universe in its determinism, so the above argument doesn't apply.  It is strictly for D&D-ism alignments.And, in 3e and prior, where alignment is a palpable force of the universe that can be affected by mortal magics, to claim that chaos doesn't exist is kinda foolish.  How do you cast "Protection from Chaos" if you claim that "Chaos" doesn't actually exist?  What are you protecting against, and why do you have to protect against it?This is an area where in-game philosophy is somewhat simpler than real-world philosophy <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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