Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Is Dragon Magazine even *Relevant* anymore?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Steel_Wind" data-source="post: 2082030" data-attributes="member: 20741"><p><strong>The Problem with <em>Dragon</em></strong></p><p></p><p>There was a recent thread here on ENWorld which indicated there appeared to be widespread dissatisfaction with <em>Dragon</em> Magazine. This got me to thinking: What is Erik going to do to fix this? What should he do? This lead me to the wider question and sneaking suspicion that I didn’t really know if he could do anything, for the reason that, just maybe, <em>Dragon</em> has lost its relevancy.</p><p></p><p>There was a time – 20-25 years ago, when <em>Dragon</em> was the central place where gamers communicated with one another. Where we got our ideas, read reviews, heard about new products and read new rules for the first time.</p><p></p><p>It was a great resource and even for several years in the mid-80’s after I had stopped playing AD&D for Rolemaster, still, I purchased <em>Dragon</em> faithfully.</p><p></p><p>But a lot has changed since that golden age. From my perspective:</p><p></p><p><strong>1</strong> – <em>Dragon is no longer a meaningful source of gaming news.</em> Like all print publications, the timeliness of “news” in print has been made nigh impossible by the Internet.</p><p></p><p><strong>2</strong>- <em>Dragon is no longer a place where gamers “come together”.</em> I’m not sure this was ever true as its pretty hard to “come together” while reading a magazine where the info flows only one way for the most part. Whatever the case, to the extent this was true – again – the Internet has replaced it. To be blunt, ENWorld, RPG.net and the Wizards forums have replaced that element and it's gone for good.</p><p></p><p><strong>3</strong>- <em>Dragon is no longer the main source for new rules.</em> This is a major change and it is one that WotC has unleashed all on its own. With the Open Gaming License, the flood of new rules of a more “hobbyist” nature such as <em>Dragon</em> used to print a lot of has never been greater. We don’t need <em>Dragon</em> for this venue anymore. </p><p></p><p>But it’s more than that. I appreciate that there are a lot of people that don’t use non- WotC products and so the OGL has had a minimal effect on them. But in the golden age of <em>Dragon</em> during 1st edition, we only got a new hardcover rule book once a year – if that. Right now, the publication schedule of WotC brings those new rules to us at a rate faster than we can almost read. Every month or every other month – we are getting a new big fat official D&D rule book. And that is a <strong><em>huge</em></strong> structural change.</p><p></p><p>So…no. I don’t find <em>Dragon</em>’s new rules, new PrCs or new spells all that germane when I am inundated with new rules, new PrCs and new spells faster than I can literally read them from other sources, official and unofficial. In that environment, the usefulness of <em>Dragon</em> to fill that niche has been utterly destroyed by a policy of WotC that has us swamped in crunch.</p><p></p><p><strong>4</strong>- <em>Dragon is no longer a place that meaningfully reviews products:</em> If it ever did, that is. The complaints of <em>Dragon</em> being a house organ were legion in the early 80’s and after a while they stopped pretending it wasn’t. Paizo published or not, that’s all <em>Dragon</em> really remains. I would actually like to read reviews of non-WotC products in it – but Editorial management at <em>Dragon</em> has indicated in the past that it is unlikely given that these products are of limited appeal to their readership.</p><p></p><p><u>So what are we left with?</u></p><p></p><p><strong>A– non-fiction:</strong> There is only so much non-fiction you can do of a gaming nature before it becomes a re-tread of an article done long ago. Near as I can tell – they are into the third or fourth retreads in some cases at this stage.</p><p></p><p><strong>B- Fiction:</strong> maybe some people enjoy this – but I don’t really read the fiction very often.</p><p></p><p><strong>C- Magic Items:</strong> <em>Bazaar of the Bizarre</em> remains very useful. But it isn’t enough to persuade me to bring this to the cashier every month.</p><p></p><p><strong>D – The New Character Class Pages:</strong> This really does not appeal very much to me at all. Sounded nice in theory – has not worked well in practice. Ditch it Erik.</p><p></p><p><strong>E- Sage Advice:</strong> Interesting, sure. But WotC puts it up on its website for free. Why am I buying this?</p><p></p><p><strong>F- Ads.</strong> Yes. Ads for new products is still something I find useful but …that’s not enough to justify me forking over money every month.</p><p></p><p><strong>G – Misc Special Features:</strong> Yes. There are some specials like the Dark Sun issue I thought was cool and the Githyanki stuff was neato too. I bought them and smiled. But this reduces the magazine's relevancy to those special one-offs for me.</p><p></p><p><strong>What about <em>Dungeon</em>?</strong></p><p></p><p>In contrast, from my perspective, I buy <em>Dungeon</em> every single month. There is never a doubt as to whether I will buy it or not or whether I will find is useful. You see, <em>Dungeon</em> gives me something that no one else is supplying right now – and that’s quality RPG adventures.</p><p></p><p>In the 21st century, crunch has inundated us and adventures are rare. So the adventures are what I prize the most. </p><p></p><p>In the 80’s, Adventures were commonplace and Rules were rare. So Rules were what we prized the most. We’ve come full circle.</p><p></p><p>I mentioned in jest on another thread that maybe what <em>Dragon</em> needed to do was become <em>Dungeon</em>. I’d buy two <em>Dungeons</em> a month happily. Now – this was tongue in cheek at the time, but the more I think of it – there is a real grain of truth there.</p><p></p><p><strong><u>Solution: Make it more like Dungeon</u></strong></p><p></p><p>Why *not* put one adventure back into <em>Dragon</em> every month? Wouldn’t that increase the value of the magazine to you?</p><p></p><p>“Isn’t that what <em>Dungeon</em> does already”, I hear you say. Yes. But that does not mean that the adventures in <em>Dragon</em> could not be the *special* ones. </p><p></p><p>For one – put the <em>Adventure Path </em> in <em>Dragon</em> – not <em>Dungeon</em>. Poof. One adventure only and you’ve given me and 10’s of thousands of others a reason to purchase <em>Dragon</em> that we otherwise never would have. Problem solved at a stroke.</p><p></p><p>If not the <em>Adventure Path </em> approach, what about the retro approach? Retro is where it’s at, it seems these days. Why not use <em>Dragon</em> as a venue to include a “Return to” series of modules. Revised and updated modules from <em>Dragon</em> and <em>Dungeon Magazine’s</em> past. It does not have to be as big as Maure Castle.</p><p></p><p><strong><em>“Return To the Halls of Beoll-Dur.” </em></strong> sound fun? <strong><em> “Vesicant, Remastered. ”</em></strong> grab you? Wouldn’t <strong>one</strong> revised and revisited adventure like those 1st edition classics – with new art and maps – make you want to buy <em>Dragon</em> again?</p><p></p><p>It seems to me that by moving some great articles out of <em>Dragon</em> and into <em>Dungeon</em> they removed the last of the reasons that I had to buy <em>Dragon</em> at all. Why not return the favor? Put one adventure into the pages of <em>Dragon</em> and keep both these publications strong and healthy. </p><p></p><p>I don’t know about you, but if they did something like that, I’d be filling out my subscription coupon in a flash.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Steel_Wind, post: 2082030, member: 20741"] [b]The Problem with [i]Dragon[/i][/b] There was a recent thread here on ENWorld which indicated there appeared to be widespread dissatisfaction with [i]Dragon[/i] Magazine. This got me to thinking: What is Erik going to do to fix this? What should he do? This lead me to the wider question and sneaking suspicion that I didn’t really know if he could do anything, for the reason that, just maybe, [i]Dragon[/i] has lost its relevancy. There was a time – 20-25 years ago, when [i]Dragon[/i] was the central place where gamers communicated with one another. Where we got our ideas, read reviews, heard about new products and read new rules for the first time. It was a great resource and even for several years in the mid-80’s after I had stopped playing AD&D for Rolemaster, still, I purchased [i]Dragon[/i] faithfully. But a lot has changed since that golden age. From my perspective: [B]1[/B] – [i]Dragon is no longer a meaningful source of gaming news.[/i] Like all print publications, the timeliness of “news” in print has been made nigh impossible by the Internet. [B]2[/B]- [i]Dragon is no longer a place where gamers “come together”.[/i] I’m not sure this was ever true as its pretty hard to “come together” while reading a magazine where the info flows only one way for the most part. Whatever the case, to the extent this was true – again – the Internet has replaced it. To be blunt, ENWorld, RPG.net and the Wizards forums have replaced that element and it's gone for good. [B]3[/B]- [i]Dragon is no longer the main source for new rules.[/i] This is a major change and it is one that WotC has unleashed all on its own. With the Open Gaming License, the flood of new rules of a more “hobbyist” nature such as [i]Dragon[/i] used to print a lot of has never been greater. We don’t need [i]Dragon[/i] for this venue anymore. But it’s more than that. I appreciate that there are a lot of people that don’t use non- WotC products and so the OGL has had a minimal effect on them. But in the golden age of [i]Dragon[/i] during 1st edition, we only got a new hardcover rule book once a year – if that. Right now, the publication schedule of WotC brings those new rules to us at a rate faster than we can almost read. Every month or every other month – we are getting a new big fat official D&D rule book. And that is a [b][i]huge[/i][/b][i][/i] structural change. So…no. I don’t find [i]Dragon[/i]’s new rules, new PrCs or new spells all that germane when I am inundated with new rules, new PrCs and new spells faster than I can literally read them from other sources, official and unofficial. In that environment, the usefulness of [i]Dragon[/i] to fill that niche has been utterly destroyed by a policy of WotC that has us swamped in crunch. [B]4[/B]- [i]Dragon is no longer a place that meaningfully reviews products:[/i] If it ever did, that is. The complaints of [i]Dragon[/i] being a house organ were legion in the early 80’s and after a while they stopped pretending it wasn’t. Paizo published or not, that’s all [i]Dragon[/i] really remains. I would actually like to read reviews of non-WotC products in it – but Editorial management at [i]Dragon[/i] has indicated in the past that it is unlikely given that these products are of limited appeal to their readership. [U]So what are we left with?[/U] [B]A– non-fiction:[/B] There is only so much non-fiction you can do of a gaming nature before it becomes a re-tread of an article done long ago. Near as I can tell – they are into the third or fourth retreads in some cases at this stage. [B]B- Fiction:[/B] maybe some people enjoy this – but I don’t really read the fiction very often. [B]C- Magic Items:[/B] [i]Bazaar of the Bizarre[/i] remains very useful. But it isn’t enough to persuade me to bring this to the cashier every month. [B]D – The New Character Class Pages:[/B] This really does not appeal very much to me at all. Sounded nice in theory – has not worked well in practice. Ditch it Erik. [B]E- Sage Advice:[/B] Interesting, sure. But WotC puts it up on its website for free. Why am I buying this? [B]F- Ads.[/B] Yes. Ads for new products is still something I find useful but …that’s not enough to justify me forking over money every month. [B]G – Misc Special Features:[/B] Yes. There are some specials like the Dark Sun issue I thought was cool and the Githyanki stuff was neato too. I bought them and smiled. But this reduces the magazine's relevancy to those special one-offs for me. [B]What about [I]Dungeon[/I]?[/B] In contrast, from my perspective, I buy [i]Dungeon[/i] every single month. There is never a doubt as to whether I will buy it or not or whether I will find is useful. You see, [i]Dungeon[/i] gives me something that no one else is supplying right now – and that’s quality RPG adventures. In the 21st century, crunch has inundated us and adventures are rare. So the adventures are what I prize the most. In the 80’s, Adventures were commonplace and Rules were rare. So Rules were what we prized the most. We’ve come full circle. I mentioned in jest on another thread that maybe what [i]Dragon[/i] needed to do was become [i]Dungeon[/i]. I’d buy two [i]Dungeons[/i] a month happily. Now – this was tongue in cheek at the time, but the more I think of it – there is a real grain of truth there. [B][U]Solution: Make it more like Dungeon[/U][/B][U][/U] Why *not* put one adventure back into [i]Dragon[/i] every month? Wouldn’t that increase the value of the magazine to you? “Isn’t that what [i]Dungeon[/i] does already”, I hear you say. Yes. But that does not mean that the adventures in [i]Dragon[/i] could not be the *special* ones. For one – put the [I]Adventure Path [/I] in [i]Dragon[/i] – not [i]Dungeon[/i]. Poof. One adventure only and you’ve given me and 10’s of thousands of others a reason to purchase [i]Dragon[/i] that we otherwise never would have. Problem solved at a stroke. If not the [I]Adventure Path [/I] approach, what about the retro approach? Retro is where it’s at, it seems these days. Why not use [i]Dragon[/i] as a venue to include a “Return to” series of modules. Revised and updated modules from [i]Dragon[/i] and [i]Dungeon Magazine’s[/i] past. It does not have to be as big as Maure Castle. [b][i]“Return To the Halls of Beoll-Dur.” [/i][/b][i][/i] sound fun? [b][i] “Vesicant, Remastered. ”[/i][/b][i][/i] grab you? Wouldn’t [b]one[/b] revised and revisited adventure like those 1st edition classics – with new art and maps – make you want to buy [i]Dragon[/i] again? It seems to me that by moving some great articles out of [i]Dragon[/i] and into [i]Dungeon[/i] they removed the last of the reasons that I had to buy [i]Dragon[/i] at all. Why not return the favor? Put one adventure into the pages of [i]Dragon[/i] and keep both these publications strong and healthy. I don’t know about you, but if they did something like that, I’d be filling out my subscription coupon in a flash. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Is Dragon Magazine even *Relevant* anymore?
Top